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JIT Publishes New Photograph of Buk 332 from Day of MH17 Downing

October 19, 2017

By Bellingcat Investigation Team

Translations: Русский

Do you have more information about this photograph or the location it was taken? If so, please send information in English, Russian, or Ukrainian to the JIT via their email (contact@jitmh17.com), VK page, or WhatsApp (+31683559290). You can also comment on this article or tweet to us (@bellingcat) to discuss the geolocation of the photograph.

Today the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), the Dutch-led criminal investigation into the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 (MH17) over Ukraine, published a new photograph of the Russian Buk missile launcher that downed plane from the day of the tragedy. The image shows the right side of the Buk, loaded on the back of the white Volvo truck that hauled it through eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014. Also visible in the photograph is the blue Volkswagen minivan that escorted the Buk through eastern Ukraine on the same day. This anti-aircraft missile launcher is Buk 332, previously identified by Bellingcat as “Buk 3×2,” belonging to Russia’s Kursk-based 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade.

Source (higher resolution version of the image available via the JIT’s VK page)

In publishing the photograph, the JIT said that the photograph was “probably taken on July 17, 2014 in the town of Makeevka, Ukraine.” By analyzing the identifying details of the Buk in the JIT photograph and comparing it to two previous videos of the right side of Buk 332, one filmed in Russia and the other in Torez, Ukraine, it becomes clear all three materials show the same missile launcher. However, it is unclear if the photograph was actually taken in Makeevka (Makiivka in Ukrainian), located just east of Donetsk.

Reference Materials

The first of these two reference materials was filmed in Stary Oskol, Russia on June 23, 2014, uploaded to the Russian social network Vkontakte (VK) on the same day by a local. An archived copy of the video can be seen below.

A composite image showing the full filmed length of the Buk can be seen below.

The second reference material is a video published by the JIT during their September 28, 2016 press conference. The video, which was filmed in Torez, Ukraine on July 17, 2014, was purposefully obscured in order to remove details that would allow geolocation of the filmer’s position.

A detailed analysis of the identifying details of Buk 332 can be found in our report “The Lost Digit: Buk 3×2.”

Analysis

The most obvious similarity between the three images is the numerous white markings on the Buk. The fragments of the painted-over digits match up perfectly, along with the H2200 (oversized cargo code) mark on the side skirt and the gravity mark (cross-hair). The details match in both appearance and their orientation to one another.

Additionally, the netting placed over the missiles is in an identical placement as it was in the Torez video and photograph.

Only four wheels are visible in the new photograph, but they correspond to the Stary Oskol and Torez videos, showing that the third, fourth, fifth, and sixth wheels are spoked (the second, which is not visible in the image, is hollow). There are few identifying features on the side skirt in the newly published image, as the tear on the side skirt is obscured by the blue VW minivan, but the visible details match the two reference materials.

This blue VW minivan is the same one that was photographed and filmed escorting Buk 332 throughout the day of the MH17 downing. Additionally, this blue VW minivan served as an escort to a different convoy of Russian-separatist military equipment two days before the downing.

Geolocation

Update: The photograph has been geolocated to Donetsk. Please see our article here for more information.

As of the time of publication, we have not been able to conclusively geolocate the image. We will update this section after we determine the location of the photograph. The JIT said that the image was “probably” taken in Makiivka, but this is uncertain from initial analysis.

Do you have more information about this photograph or the location it was taken? If so, please send information in English, Russian, or Ukrainian to the JIT via their email (contact@jitmh17.com), VK page, or WhatsApp (+31683559290). You can also comment on this article or tweet to us (@bellingcat) to discuss the geolocation of the photograph. We are also attempting to geolocate the image through the crowdsourcing platform Check.

Conclusion

This new image is the ninth photograph or video showing Russian Buk 332 in eastern Ukraine, along with a satellite image taken on 11:08am on the day of the tragedy showing the missile launcher in Makiivka, Ukraine. While the photograph does not seem to provide us any new details shedding light on the events of July 17, 2014, it does solidify the Bellingcat’s claim made in November 2014 that Russian Buk 3×2 (now known as 332) from Russia’s 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade was the murder weapon in the MH17 tragedy.

This photograph is perhaps the most detailed look we have of the right side of Buk 332 after it arrived in Ukraine, showing us how the identifying features on this side align perfectly with those seen on the right side of Buk 332 in Russia almost four weeks before the downing.

Before today, there was little room for doubt in asserting that Russia’s Buk 332 downed MH17. After today, with the ninth piece of visual evidence publicly available showing the weapon belonging to the Russian Armed Forces in eastern Ukraine, there is no room left at all for doubt.

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139 Comments

  1. Len

    Hate to disagree but there is always room for doubt.. like JIT says – the photograph was “PROBABLY taken on July 17, 2014 in the town of Makeevka, Ukraine.” .. even they not sure or you even.

    And your stmnt.. ” the Russian Buk missile launcher that downed plane from the day of the tragedy. ” s/b “ALLEGEDLY downed” .. . since no court or other authority has heard the evidence to conclusively determine the case. Unless you now consider yourself the prosecutor and court??

    Reply
    • Alex

      Len, stop messing around, like all russian propaganda and their bots. The fact that MH17 was downed by a russian “Buk” is already unambiguously proven by both JIT from all the facts they have and by independent researhers like Bellingcat from open sources of information which can be checked by anyone. This is just one more, additional photo which adds to the already evident course of events.

      Reply
      • Mike

        Nothing has been proven. JIT used only Bellingcat manipulated data and the official IATA standardized air accident investigation has not even been started yet. It is known that USA has been blocking the work. The JIT material is a big joke.

        Reply
        • Ulli

          Youre right. An “official IATA standardized air accident investigation” has not even been startet. And it won’t. The organization that sets standards would be the ICAO…

          Reply
        • KimmoK

          IATA:
          “The International Air Transport Association (IATA) is the trade association for the world’s airlines”
          “We represent, lead and serve the European airline industry, and focus on catering to the needs of our member airlines, accredited travel agents and industry partners.”
          “We maintain close relations with governments, agencies, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), …”

          ICAO:
          “The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) is a UN specialized agency, established by States in 1944 to manage the administration and governance of the Convention on International Civil Aviation (Chicago Convention).”
          “Non-governmental organizations which also participate in ICAO’s work include … the International Air Transport Association (IATA)”

          Someone wrote:
          “IATA is effectively a powerful lobbying body for international air carriers, while ICAO is a inter-governmental organisation which deals with regulatory aspects of national civil aviation oversight. ICAO makes recommendations and sets standards (although it has no enforcement powers) which are (generally) followed by national civil aviation authorities.”

          MH17 crash cause was investigated under ICAO.

          Reply
    • Svend

      Always room for doubt.. Not anymore, too many fotos, this is just a confirmation, no more, no less. Another little piece of rope to hang Putler.

      Reply
      • Len

        you guys are funny… photos where the location is unknown are not proof of anything.. can speculate where this foto was taken but it proves nothing.. and most of your comments show only your prejudices.. nothing else..

        Reply
        • Yev

          Russian authorities like it so much to respond to solid allogations with neglecting, bold and absurd statements to show them the evidance, Well, they will get it, eventually, in the court.

          Reply
          • Len

            good.. that is where they s/ get it.. in a court of law.. not the court of public opinion

        • Black Star

          Read the article, proofster. That way you can at least give somewhat believable claims instead of clumsy denial. By the way, where is the proof that it was anything else than this exact missile platform, sent from Russia, operated by Russian professional soldier, under orders from Russian military, that shot down the civilian plane causing hundreds of civilian deaths?

          Su-25 that cannot even fly that high? Ukrainian Buk, that somehow shot its missile from territory under Russian occupation? Dead bodies loaded into the plane which was then exploded mid-air by CIA? Any other Russian fabrications? Snakes in the plane, perhaps? Give the proof, comrade.

          Reply
          • Len

            you seem to be under the misconception that someone is guilty until proved innocent.. no one needs to prove innocence.. the objective is to prove guilt.. in a court of law.. not in here or any other 2-bit conspiracy site..

    • ttb

      Fine Len. No room left at all for ‘Reasonable’ doubt.
      Put another way if nine little ducks in a row doesn’t assuage the doubts one might have had with 8,7,6,5,4 etc -then sooner or later it has to be concluded that such doubts aren’t reasonable -or put another way are Unreasonable. If a party persists with unreasonable doubts (not to be confused with scrutinous scepticism -scepticism is healthy and important) then it can be reasonably concluded their interest lies somwhere beyond the bounds of evidence based enquiry.

      Reply
      • Len

        Fine JR.. If you have evidence abt this foto.. you know who to contact.. If ppl base their conclusions on spurious fotos then we when can conclude where their prejudices “lie”.. not in the truth but in preconceived notions as to who is responsible..

        Reply
    • jerry

      Len
      You must be partisan. No court on earth has an absolute standard. But all applicable standards convict Russia

      Clear and convincing, the highest requirement. This evidence is clear, convincing and almost over-kill. Beyond a reasonable doubt is the next less stringent, sorry Len Russia is guily by that standard too. The least stringent legal standard is by a preponderance of the evidence . Read that as 51% of the reliable, material evidence. In this case it is more like91%.
      No Court on earth would see it your way. Add the caucus beli of political motivation to kill of a hated enemy with a full out conventional war and you have Russia at the scene of the crime and stirring motivation. If they were not so sloppy, it could have worked. But, 9 separate confirmations of the Russian TELAR is clear and convincing and still just the tip of the iceberg. Russia is culpable No joke.

      Reply
      • Olli

        There are no any matetrial evidences so far.
        No one live witnesses.
        No one butterfly-shaped missile fragments.
        Twitter posts from SBU paid agents and fabricated “analisis” of almost invisible skirt from the lowest quality screenshots is a joke.

        And tons of lie all over the case:
        Where are “Chernukhino kossacks downed plane”? They are faked by SBU.
        Where are “BUK 312”? It was faked by SBU and Bellingcat.
        Where are hundreds of X-shaped fragments? No one of such fragments was discovered.
        Where are witnesses of Buk’s launch from Reuters? Interview was faked.
        What’s with “Paris Match photo from Snezhnoe”? It’s not a photo and it’s not from Snezhnoe.
        Where are launch field reports from BBC, Guardian etc? All of them was faked or shows nothing.

        Reply
        • KimmoK

          >No one live witnesses.

          Plenty of eyewitness reported the BUK and launch via social media.
          Some other BUK eyewitnesses are publicly known and some not.
          IIRC, JIT stated they have hundreds of eyewitness.

          >No one butterfly-shaped missile fragments.

          proRUssians had months time to sanitize all bowtie fragments (and holes) from wreckage. Russia helped that by the massive invasion in late 2014.

          Anyway, two bowtie shape fragments were found by DSB, third by a journalist.

          Summary:
          https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLjRS0iWsAIsxVO.jpg

          Nothing indicate any other warhead than 9N314M vs MH17.

          >Twitter posts from SBU paid agents and fabricated “analisis” of almost invisible skirt from the lowest quality screenshots is a joke.

          Skirt, oil stains, bent metal plate, cabling, replaced wheel, remains of overpainted numbering, Russian H2200 -markings, etc. can be verified from ~9 photos/videos.

          Also satellite images and MH17 damage prove that rebels had a BUK.

          >And tons of lie all over the case:

          >Where are “BUK 312”? It was faked by SBU and Bellingcat.

          Where did Bellingcat fake “312”???

          Yes SBU/UA has lied/made mistakes/told half truths.
          But they seem minor when one compare to lies from RU MOD and from RU controlled media.
          Short list:
          https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMeUHhTX0AA3l81.jpg

          Reply
        • Black Star

          Funny how you deny existence of material evidence, when the plane shot down is the biggest material evidence, full of holes from missile fragments.

          Reply
  2. Feanor

    What is bellingcat’s take on the recent defection of a Ukrainian PVO officer to Russia who claimed that he had information about Ukraine being involved in the downing of the airliner in question?

    Reply
    • Лена

      The defector talked about Zaroschenskoe. On July 21, 2014 Russian MOD’s briefing showed a satellite photo near Zaroschenskoe. You can see two Buk launchers on that photo, in an agriculture field. But you cannot see traces from tracks of those launchers (30 ton each) on that field on satellite photos in Google Earth. You can see traces on the launch site near Snezhnoe and Pervomajskoe: 47.973932N 38.763977E 8/15/2014.

      Just after I commented the above on the website of Zvezda TV channel (of Russian army) which published 3 articles about the defectors and a video with him, all those three articles were deleted.

      Reply
    • Aric Toler

      It’s as reasonable and logical as the account of the deserter talking about Captain Voloshin.

      Reply
    • ttb

      I suspect he’s made of the same smoke and dust as Carlos the Spanish Air Traffic Controller. Or the chap who ratted out the sharpshooting Captain Voloshin -the Ukie AF legend who can hit a target from 7km below AND make it look like a BUK did it.

      Reply
    • PM

      Northern parts of Kirova street have street views on Yandex Maps. The streetscape in some parts matches a bit the photo, but nothing that I could find that would match the location perfectly. Still worth further sleuthing.

      Reply
  3. Mike

    I also have studied all these photographs from the BUKs. Most of them have been photographed in May 2014 when the Kiev regime transported all the heavy weapons as BUKs out from the unstable Donbass region. There seems to be a systematic photo manipulation project behind these materials. BUK cannot be used without its command and target acquisition radar vehicles which have not been seen in the materials. The transportation route and location of the alleged launch do not make any sense. There were several operational BUK-systems in the areas controlled by Kiev and it has been easy to take photos about those. The “possible smoke trail” came from a grass fire easily seen from the Google Earth photos. I think that this “every-men’s criminal court” has failed. Most of Ukrainian car drivers have a video camera in their car window but there is no such materials about the BUK in question.

    Reply
    • Aric Toler

      “There seems to be a systematic photo manipulation project behind these materials.”
      Thanks for saying out loud the only defense that anyone has against these materials — either they’re real and prove everything that we’ve been saying for three years, or they are the results of a grand conspiracy armed with Photoshop. I’ll take Occam’s razor on that.
      P.S. There is a dashcam video of the Buk from Makiivka, so learn about these materials you are convinced are fakes before you talk about them.

      Reply
      • Sean Lamb

        “either they’re real and prove everything that we’ve been saying for three years, or they are the results of a grand conspiracy armed with Photoshop.”

        How about they are real and prove nothing further than there was a Buk trundling about the breakaway regions on July 17?

        Reply
        • Kimmo Kannala

          That BUK in rebel hands is the only murder weapon that had opportunity to shoot down MH17 & cause the seen damage.

          A lot of photos and videos of this Russian unit. Zero about any other.

          Reply
        • Mike

          Kimmo – where did you got this “in rebel hands”. The only known BUK users in the area are the Kiev militants.

          Reply
          • KimmoK

            It was transported deep inside rebel area with rebel captured lowloader truck.
            And it was escorted by rebel controlled vehicles (used on the same route also a few days before).

            You think Kiev forces were transporting a Russian BUK deep inside rebel area?
            (U also surely know the details match perfectly with Russian 332.)

          • Mike

            The Bellingcat story is a nice pre-manufactured story but there is one thing missing. The evidence. I don’t understand what a political NGO is doing with air accident investigation which should be a legal international procedure.

          • KimmoK

            Mike, stop lying, stop being a fool.

            >Kiev was loosing quickly.

            It was not, proRUssians were loosing, see official map change here:
            http://euromaidanpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/ato-1.jpg

            This is my summary around the time of MH17 event, from “all” available info:
            https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMV7eVGXcAAPs7c.jpg

            Animation here go beyond July, but show the progress untill RU full force invasion:
            https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/East_Ukraine_conflict_dynamics.gif

            UA had a problem “only” in border area where their troops were hammered from Russian side with artillery & rocket fire and became encircled around 16 july.

            Core reason for BUK delivery to rebels was to help to secure another border crossing beside Luhansk area.

            >But the launch site was still in Kiev’s hands.

            No it was not.
            Launch site at south side of Snizhne was ~600m from rebel checkpoint that was built already weeks before.
            (and Zarohenskoe “launch site” is impossible vs public evidence.)

            Simple summary of how you know missile was launched from the south side of Snizhne:
            https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMV7bJWX0AUw0J3.jpg (better version is in the works)

            Here is summary of military positions around the launch site & DSB map etc.:
            https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMV7cC7WAAAqdcz.jpg

            >The artillery of the separatists came to the insecure Donets-Torez road only in August.

            LOL! You must have certain “Davie” as your komrade.
            Rebels posted videos how they used the road in 15 jul etc.

            Road was briefly cut by Ukraine forces only after MH17 tragedy.

            >There is a common map on the BUK units of the Kiev troops.

            RU MoD lies without any evidence to back it up.
            So far none of UA BUK units seen in the area where it would be possible to cause MH17 damage.

            >They had several in the Donetsk region.

            Donetsk was under control of rebels, also those BUK bases (since ~8Jul) with broken BUK units.

    • Grubbie

      “the buk cannot be used without its command and target acquisition vehicles”. Oh yes it can,it can even be fired completely blind. You have put your finger on the cause of this disaster, poor acquisition. Had this launcher been accompanied they wouldn’t have had to rely solely on the fire control radar and would have had intelligence officers, IFF, etc as well as a lot more time to think.

      Reply
    • TJ

      Mike, Ask yourself why the Russian Ministry of Defence or the manufacturers haven’t used that excuse of Buk TELAR not being able to be used on its own? Do some serious research. The whole point of the TELAR and its design is that it can be used on its own. It is called built in redundancy and goes back to lessons learnt during the conflicts in the Middle East. The TELAR can function completely on its own using the fire control radar.

      Reply
      • Kimmo Kannala

        Yep, Russian trolls write brainlessly.

        Finnish defence forces confirmed that solo TELAR has ~100% kill rate/accuracy vs airliner.

        Reply
        • Len

          Wow.. “the Finnish defence forces confirmed that solo TELAR has ~100% kill rate/accuracy vs airliner.l “.. now there is a newsflash 🙂 Seems your Finns do not like to be left out.. guess your taking a break from Twitter to write your “brainless” crap here as well..

          Reply
          • Grubbie

            Accuracy not a problem, verification of the target is much more difficult. Len & Mike you’re not stupid, you’ve read enough by now to be certain of the truth beyond reasonable doubt. Have some dignity, it’s just not worth it for a couple of bucks an hour.
            Concentrate your efforts on getting back all that money Putin and his mates have stolen from you. Open source investigation like bellingcat would be a great place to start. Good luck, I look forward to hearing more from you.

        • KimmoK

          Went quickly through comments that I found from Finnish specialists vs MH17, some items translated:

          18Jul2014 (Finnish weapons specialist, confirmed by others in 2016)
          “Without TAR, TELAR target & height analysis is not accurate.”
          “TAR would have been too easy target for UA airforce.”
          “Airliner at 10km altitude is very easy target for a BUK.”

          18Jul2014 (Captain from Finnish air defence regiment )
          “It is trained that launch happens within seconds after target is given”
          “It is hard to ID a target type, with only TELAR, especially in poor weather.”
          “TELAR units that Finland used had no IFF system at all.”
          “IFF system can not tell the difference vs Civilian and enemy target.”
          “It is possible that USA pinpointed launch location via SIGINT.”

          Reply
      • Mike

        The rebels were fighting against the attacking Kiev troops. Without the radar system they did not have any idea on their fighters or bombers. Why would they operate without the command and radar unit? No way.
        But the Kiev militants were loosing the battle and they were desperate. They had several effective BUK-units in the region but no target as the separatists had no planes. Kiev had a motive to destroy a civil plane – especially Malesian as an enemy of USA. And the manuscript worked perfectly – USA attacked with EU against RUSSIA which was fully innocent in the whole civil war (see OSCE reports). This was a most typical “false-flag-operation” so common By US-CIA.

        Reply
        • Лена

          About 0.5% of all people are schizophrenics. The most common type of schizophrenia is paranoid. Psychiatrists treat schizophrenia with pills. Go to them before you murder somebody. My family members know two other families with deaths because of schizophrenia.

          However, suffuciently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice.

          Reply
        • Grubbie

          It was a Russian unit. They had previously shot down 2 Ukrainian planes, you’re not seriously going to try and tell me that the Ukrainians shot down their own planes? The rebels /Russians knew that any aircraft were not their own,and assumed that they would be Ukrainian. You have important work to do tracking down all that money. I work building huge superyachts in Holland and Germany for Russian mafia friends of Putin, so I have a pretty good idea who stole it and where it’s gone.

          Reply
        • KimmoK

          >Without the radar system they did not have any idea on their fighters or bombers.

          It’s normal prosedure (globally) to use human spotters to assist air defence units.

          >Why would they operate without the command and radar unit?

          1) They had limited amount of lowloaders to transport units.
          2) They perhaps had repaired Ukraine TEL from Luhansk base to reload the BUK when needed.
          3) TELAR is designed to be able to operate in solo mode.
          4) One BUK unit is far more easier to smuggle in than multiple units.
          5) TELAR can get approximate target position from other radar systems.
          6) Russian TAR was within link range in the Russian side of border. Perhaps it was planned to make the link.

          >But the Kiev militants were loosing the battle and they were desperate.

          It was the other way around. (you can easily verify this from militia maps)
          proRUssians were loosing ground fast and they were at the risk of loosing their only supply route to/from Russia.

          >They had several effective BUK-units in the region but no target as the separatists had no planes.

          1) So you say without any evidence.
          2) Launch provenly happened from rebel area, how could there be Ukraine BUK units?

          >Kiev had a motive to destroy a civil plane – especially Malesian as an enemy of USA.

          More sick conspiracies.
          In real life no-one had true motive to down a civilian airplane.
          Unless some mentally ill person gave proRUssian BUK crew the wrong target.

          >RUSSIA which was fully innocent in the whole civil war

          Hilarous.
          Study the evidence.
          Study what rebel leader Igor (Strelkov) Girkin confessed publicly.
          -> UA was reluctant to use military force and without Girkin and his Russian soldiers + weapons there would be no war.

          Reply
          • Lena

            TELAR can be reloaded with missiles without TEL, with any usual mobile crane.

          • KimmoK

            @Lena
            Yes, that is true.
            But I imagine it go much faster and smoother with TEL + not tied to roads.

          • Mike

            With your “explanations” you can say that the BUK came from the Moon. And you story is fake. According to the OSCE maps, the Kiev troops were at that time in a big encirclement in the area east of the alleged BUK launch site. Kiev was loosing quickly. But the launch site was still in Kiev’s hands. The artillery of the separatists came to the insecure Donets-Torez road only in August. Thus, this road was not a suitable site for a missile unit. There is a common map on the BUK units of the Kiev troops. They had several in the Donetsk region. It is not a new idea of shooting down civil airplanes – read US Operation Northwoods. I guess that you are not an expert of internal policy of Ukraine – and pls, not even try.

    • tetyana-donetsk

      Mike: “Most of them have been photographed in May 2014 when the Kiev regime transported all the heavy weapons as BUKs out from the unstable Donbass region”. I am from Donetsk, and I know that your confirmation is nonsense. First, in the May 2014 Donetsk already was under the power of DNR. There were neither Ukrainian flags nor Ukrainian rules. It was a big problem to take out even a computer from the DNR territory, not that the BUK. Second, in Donetsk were not air defence forces. Ukraine was never prepared to fight in the east, therefore all the main armed forces were concentrated in other regions. There were only parts of internal troops In Donetsk. Of course, there were not any BUKs in their arsenal. Moreover, where could they be transported in the eastern part of Donetsk (either in Makeyevka or along Shakhtostroiteley Boulevard), where already there were DNR checkpoints? This could only be done by pro-Russian militants!

      Reply
    • Valery

      Yes, TELAR can be used on its own. The confidence of target detection is definitely poorer. The probability of error is higher.

      Reply
  4. Grubbie

    Has anyone looked at all the trees and tried to match the bark pattern? This could be very tiresome, but is so obvious that a fresh stump is quite likely. Once there you should be able to compare the kerbstones.

    Reply
  5. Grubbie

    It was a Russian unit. They had previously shot down 2 Ukrainian planes, you’re not seriously going to try and tell me that the Ukrainians shot down their own planes? The rebels /Russians knew that any aircraft were not their own,and assumed that they would be Ukrainian. You have important work to do tracking down all that money. I work building huge superyachts in Holland and Germany for Russian mafia friends of Putin, so I have a pretty good idea who stole it and where it’s gone.

    Reply
    • Grubbie

      What evidence would convince you that it was a Russian unit (BUK 332,53rd anti aircraft missile)?

      Reply
      • Len

        I personally would love to see a video of the missile being fired and the plane hit and falling to the ground.. that would convince me 🙂 asking too much?

        Reply
      • Mike

        In flight accident research as also in science we first make observations, assess the evidence, and only after that we make conclusions. Bellingcat selects first the enemy, then creates a story and after this tries to find any kind of “evidence”. I have seen many manipulated photos here so maybe the idea is that if there is no evidence, that should be created. In Russia and Ukraine, there are hundreds of business men who can sell any kind of information to you – just as you like. Some US news agencies even write a story by themselves and ask those business men to extend it with interviews and photos. This is very common and many NGOs earn their money so.

        Reply
  6. Mike

    The best indication that Bellingcat has manipulated the materials is that all controversial evidence in these pages will disappear immediatelly. Censorship is necessary to maintain the reputation lost. Only those messages will surviwe which say “it was a Russian unit” even if there is not a single indication for that. I am an air force expert and my important messages about the investigation procedures all were deleted. Are these pages for monkeys only?

    Reply
  7. tetyana-donetsk

    In occasion of manipulations and fake versions, nobody still has surpassed the Russian “experts”. So, Russian bots better to be quieter. Donetsk citizens already in July 2014 wrote about the movement of this BUK in the area of the Shakhtostroiteley boulevard and Motel (this is the border between Donetsk and Makeyevka). This is also confirmed by the phone conversations of militants intercepted by the SBU http://stepasyuk.livejournal.com/11478.html. And now Billingcat just has confirmed these facts!

    Reply
    • Mike

      Russian news dealers have published a big number of fake photos, indeed. They earn well with those. Many people in Donetsk know that BUKs and artillery were transported out from the area by the Kiev militants – but that was in May-June – not 17 July. At that time in July the whole area south of the Donetsk-Torez road was gunned by the Kiovans and only one small road was blocking the encirclement in Snizhne. Definitely that road was not a place for BUK run by the separatists. There is no any trace or other indication and very few soldiers were there. See the OSCE map on the situation.

      Reply
      • tetyana-donetsk

        I am one of that “many people from Donetsk”, which were in Donetsk until the end of September 2014. And I already have written that IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE in May 2014 for Ukrainian troops to transport any weapons through the city. In Donetsk, there were no military units, other than internal troops which were blocked in their units. The city was already ruled by pro-Russian militants, only the airport was Ukrainian. On May 26, the militants tried to seize the airport but got to the teeth – more than 30 corpses. But around Donetsk in May, there were block posts of terrorists everywhere, so there could be no question of any transportation of Ukrainian BUKs! Even the tanks under Slavyansk were blocked in April, what Ukrainian BUKs could be in the occupied territory in May! Do not write nonsense! And did you read “Chronology of movements of the BUK in Ukraine 17-18.07.2014” at my link of yesterday? There are many comments of local citizens from Donetsk, Torez and Snezhnoe. And many pictures of this BUK along its way. Also the record of intercepted telephone conversations of militants and quotes from Strelkov. All these facts converge and tell of one thing. There can’t be any doubt!

        Reply
      • KimmoK

        Mike, what map you talk about?
        Googling “osce map 2014” did not give me any relevant result.

        Reply
        • Mike

          The maps you linked above show exactly what I said before. Strangely, the Kiev map is different and shows that the area south of Torez was in the hands of separatists which was not true as the other maps also indicate. Why Kiev had to lie here?
          This whole Bellingcat shuffling is very childish. The term “evidence” is used as in playground. The investigation belongs to Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) but so far there is no any serious work done. The key materials are kept secret which indicates that there is a conspiracy, indeed. There are also some new materials released from Kiev which have changed the whole image up-side-down. I cannot understand why the children’s play of Bellingcat is still seen important in JIT – unbelievable.

          Reply
          • tetyana-donetsk

            Mike, what’s the difference, in whose hands was the territory south of Torez, if Buk arrived in TOREZ from DONETSK, and all its way along it passed through the occupied territory (from west to east, not from the South!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BRgPkailq8 You say “white” at black. One of two things: either you work for a troll’s salary or you are simply impassable blunt. There is iron evidence before you that the same BUK was fixed in Donetsk (where there were NO UKRAINIAN BUKs at that time). After that, the same BUK was recorded by several witnesses to the occupied Torez. There is the confession of Strelkov, there is a record of the pro-Russian militants. To deny the obvious with such perseverance, obviously, is your responsibility for a certain payment. Another explanation for your behaviour I can not find.

          • KimmoK

            So you lied about the OSCE map and about launch site being Ukraine controlled.

            “The maps you linked above show exactly what I said before.”
            You said Donetsk-Torez road was under Ukraine control and therefore not possible for BUK transport etc.
            Why lie?

            “Strangely, the Kiev map is different and shows that the area south of Torez was in the hands of separatists which was not true as the other maps also indicate.”
            Military provided maps exaggerate their progress and play down enemy progress.

            See “summary of military positions around the launch site & DSB map etc.” to see all combined (the most true but rough rough map).
            Area south from Torez (Zarohenskoe area) is not possible launch location vs MH17 damage, and no BUK was seen there in summer 2014.

            MH17 crash cause was done under ICAO (also Russia agreed on the result).

            What “key material” is kept secret from you?

          • tetyana-donetsk

            Mike, do you consider the JIT investigation childish too? Chief Prosecutor Fred Westerbeke, the head of the joint investigation team (JIT) that is looking into the Malaysian Boeing downing on 17 July 2014 over the Donbass: “The investigation goes on and I cannot tell when this matter will be put to rest. But it is going to happen, no one should doubt it. We presented our preliminary findings on 28 September 2016 and answered the questions about what had happened to MH17 and where the Buk missile was launched from. Back then, we outlined the individuals involved, to a varying degree, in the tragedy. We have been looking for these people ever since.” https://www.novayagazeta.ru/articles/2017/10/16/74192-the-purpose-is-to-bring-this-matter-to-court

          • Mike

            I am waiting for the ICAO investigation to start. I have been in air force and I am an expert of reconnaisance. It would be very easy for me to prove that 70 % of the “evidence” in the JIT report is rubbish. Even the translations of the phone conversations are totally wrong. Image interpretation is just out of context. The JIT report was based on the childish methods of Bellingcat – not real ICAO standards.
            The OSCE maps are very similar than those made by the separatists.
            I think that you must leave the technical side of the launch site to be defined by the BUK factory. Opinions are not needed.

          • KimmoK

            Mike, for the final time:
            Crash cause was done under ICAO. So, stop lying.

            >It would be very easy for me to prove that 70 % of the “evidence” in the JIT report is rubbish.

            JIT does not do reports.
            Please prove DSB report wrong, because no-one else has managed to do it so far.

            >Even the translations of the phone conversations are totally wrong.

            DSB did not use other phone conversations than those between ATC entities & MH17. You mix up JIT and DSB??? Deliberately?

            >Image interpretation is just out of context.

            Show your version or cut the bullcr*p.

            > The JIT report was based on the childish methods of Bellingcat
            Nope.
            JIT does not do public reports. Just some info releases.
            You better start to study JIT information releases, instead of RT.com and Sputnik.

            > – not real ICAO standards.
            JIT is crime investigation. Not related to ICAO.
            DSB worked under ICAO.

            >The OSCE maps are very similar than those made by the separatists.
            What OSCE maps???

            Separatist maps show that launch site was under control of rebels, so was the road from Donetsk to Snizhne via Torez.
            Also it show that proRU proceeded to RU border, south-east from launch site.

            >I think that you must leave the technical side of the launch site to be defined by the BUK factory.

            LOL!
            DSB result (and mine) are done according to BUK missile specifications.
            JIT further studied the matter via sample detonations etc.

            “BUK factory” works under Kreml command. They have lied multiple times, it indicate they are guilty, but yo still believe in them? LOL #2 !

          • Mike

            These pages are like those in the yellow newspapers. Political opinions overcome real facts. Those who have picked up photos from Internet (set up by Bellingcat helpers) have started to think that they are real investigators and are able to assess also other materials.
            There was even an opinion that Russian army operated in Ukraine 2014. OSCE has carefully controlled the borders and troops and there is not a single observation about Russian involvement. This is an official fact in all the reports. I would advice you to read also OSCE materials. They did not see a BUK crossing the border. They had already started the monitoring at that time.

          • KimmoK

            >OSCE has carefully controlled the borders and troops and there is not a single observation about Russian involvement.”

            Mike, stop lying. Enough is enough.
            OSCE monitored only one border post when MH17 happened.
            Even today they monitor only 1/40 of the border because Russia does not enable them monitor more. + Russia took down OSCE drones via GPS jamming.
            Example:
            “several of the aircraft were targeted by surface-to-air missiles and military-grade electronic jamming.” http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/10/28/international-monitor-quietly-drops-drone-surveillance-of-ukraine-war/

            “At a location near Makiivka (11 km east of Donetsk, “DPR”-controlled) on the H21 road, the SMM observed six unmarked T-80 tanks moving west towards Donetsk,” Source: http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/136056

            “18 September, an SMM mid-range UAV spotted 48 tanks (34 T-72 and 14 T-64) 3.7km east-south-east of Ternove (57km east of Donetsk).” http://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/344126

            Note that all “rebel” T-72, T-80 and T-90 tanks came from Russian military.
            https://i.ytimg.com/vi/YSx1Hu2ZcOA/maxresdefault.jpg

            Novorussian army is far more modern than UA army, because modern RU weapons with Russian crews:
            “On 26 September the SMM observed at least 36 tanks (type unknown) at the training area in “LPR”-controlled Kruhlyk (31km south-west of Luhansk). A day earlier the SMM spotted at the same training area one heavy multiple launch thermobaric rocket system (TOS-1 Buratino, 220mm).
            – OSCE SMM report posted on September 28, 2015”

            (there is good reason why OSCE did not initially see anything “russian” https://burkonews.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/OSCE-separatists-getting-into-car.jpg)

          • Len

            Like how you cherry-pick your “FACTS” Kimmo..

            for Example:
            “several of the aircraft were targeted by surface-to-air missiles and military-grade electronic jamming.” http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/10/28/international-monitor-quietly-drops-drone-surveillance-of-ukraine-war/
            == yes and the OSCE also has not assigned responsibility for this to either side.. though of course the US-Ukraine side has..

            “At a location near Makiivka (11 km east of Donetsk, “DPR”-controlled) on the H21 road, the SMM observed six unmarked T-80 tanks moving west towards Donetsk,” Source: http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/136056
            — again.. the OSCE did not say these were “Russian ” tanks.. just unmarked..

            “18 September, an SMM mid-range UAV spotted 48 tanks (34 T-72 and 14 T-64) 3.7km east-south-east of Ternove (57km east of Donetsk).” http://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/344126
            .. again the OSCE did not say these were “Russian ” tanks..

            Note that ALL “rebel” T-72, T-80 and T-90 tanks came from Russian military. —
            == on what evidence do you say this???

            “On 26 September the SMM observed at least 36 tanks (type unknown) at the training area in “LPR”-controlled Kruhlyk (31km south-west of Luhansk). A day earlier the SMM spotted at the same training area one heavy multiple launch thermobaric rocket system (TOS-1 Buratino, 220mm).
            – OSCE SMM report posted on September 28, 2015”

            –love the word “UKNOWN” .. but seems they are known to you thru some extra-sensory powers??

            (there is good reason why OSCE did not initially see anything “russian” https://burkonews.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/OSCE-separatists-getting-into-car.jpg)

            –*groan* … you must really think (I use the word figuratively) that OSCE members are stupid?

          • KimmoK

            “Note that ALL “rebel” T-72, T-80 and T-90 tanks came from Russian military. —
            == on what evidence do you say this???”

            Len, farmers and miners do not manufacture them in Donbas.
            And you can not buy them from local shops.
            When “rebels” started to get T72, Ukraine army was using none of them.
            Pictured “rebel” T80 does not look like Ukraine modification.
            T90 has never been used by Ukraine army.

            So, all of them come from Russian military. (most likely with crews)

            End of story.

          • Len

            Strange the OSCE does not recognize these tanks.. guess they never took a course in tank identification?? Or know where certain types of tanks come from? You really should be helping them out Kimmo…

  8. tetyana-donetsk

    Mike: “OSCE has carefully controlled the borders and troops and there is not a single observation about Russian involvement. This is an official fact in all the reports.” – Ha-ha-ha! First, the most members of OSCE-mission in Donbass, especially in 2014-2015 were from Russia or pro-Russia persons. They lived then and live now in Donetsk hotels, communicate with pro-Russian terrorists, even celebrated their weddings. There were many similar facts. Second, pro-Russia militants do not give the OSCE access to all the occupied territories, there were a lot of scandals and statements of the Ukrainian side to the UN on this topic. Third, the OSCE controls only separate checkpoints of the Russian-Ukrainian border, while the total length of this border in the occupied territory is 408 km. Moreover, this control is carried out exclusively in the daytime https://www.unian.net/war/1426482-ukraina-ne-kontroliruet-408-kilometrov-granitsyi-s-rossiey-obse.html.
    Therefore, the OSCE not only could miss one lone BUK, when it crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border – they do not see even hundreds of units of heavy military equipment that regularly crossed and cross now this border from Russia! This is the main reason why Ukraine demands to introduce the UN peacekeepers to the entire occupied territory, including along the entire 408-km section of the Russian-Ukrainian border. So, you either completely do not understand the situation on the territory of the Russian-Ukrainian conflict, or you are making a fool of yourself!

    Reply
    • Mike

      I know well how OSCE works (I also have worked for them) and I can tell that the team is more western than Russian oriented – but impartial at work. OSCE has controlled all the four roads where crossing the border is possible but a permanent office they only have in Russian Checkpoints Gukovo and Donetsk. I have read all their weekly & status reports. Nobody has seen a Russian soldier here. Those who come from Russia have their home in Ukraine. Some western reporters came to Donetsk and asked from people if there are any Russians fighting here. People answered that 80% of the soldiers are Russian. This is true, but 60% of Ukrainians have in their passports that they are Russian. In Ukrainian passport “Russian” means ethnicity – not citisenship. Russian Russians are not fighting here. We must remember that 3 million Ukrainians have recently moved to Russia and 2 million are freguently working there. Russia is still feeding the Ukrainians.

      Reply
      • Лена

        The Buk TELAR (missile launcher) 332 from Kursk crossed the Russia-Ukraine border (under its own power, not on a low-loader) at night 16-17 July 2014 and back in early morning 18 July not by road. It has tracks like a tank.

        Reply
      • tetyana-donetsk

        “Nobody has seen a Russian soldier here.” – again, either you are the pro-Russian bot, or you are a blind and deaf victim of Russian propaganda. If all in OSCE-mission in Donbass are “western” like you – I don’t surprise then they “don’t see a Russian soldier” there. “Those who come from Russia have their home in Ukraine” – do you say this seriously?! But why they back to Russia in refrigerators as “cargo 200”?! 🙂
        “In Ukrainian passport “Russian” means ethnicity – not citizenship.” – ???? Do you know that in Ukrainian passport there is not the graph “nationality”? 🙂 Don’t believe the Russian propaganda (if you are not the part of this propaganda machine, which is very similar). Maybe, there are not Russian militaries in Syria too? But they are in Donbass! And they tell some self about this! https://informnapalm.org/en/professional-russian-army-in-ukraine-database-and-visualisation/
        https://informnapalm.org/en/soldiers-of-the-russian-northern-fleet-in-donbas-2014/
        https://informnapalm.org/en/there-are-no-russian-troops-in-donbas/

        Reply
        • Mike

          InformNapalm is as childish Soros funded club as Bellingcat. Both they say that they (children in net) are doing “research, data analysis”, etc. And they know the results of their “investigation” already beforehand as they say in their agenda:
          InformNapalm – Our core purpose: is to inform the world about the real role of the Russian government in ongoing hybrid conflicts in Ukraine, Georgia, other countries of Eastern and Central Europe, and in the Middle East.
          OSCE has checked the passports and belongings of a million people crossing the border between Russia. Not a single Russian soldier or major weapon has been seen.
          OSCE has seen many such Soros clubs and even worse ones as e.g. Soldiers’ Mothers of Russia which was 100% a fake club. It copied names of dead Russian soldiers from a list of university students in Kazakhstan – all are still well. And M Khodorkovski made a map in jail showing from where did the soldiers came (InformNapal map, link above). Kiev does not make its life easier by distributing lies after lies. It already has lost its reputation and reliability and the financier countris know that.

          Reply
          • KimmoK

            >OSCE has checked the passports and belongings of a million people crossing the border between Russia.

            You fail to mention that OSCE monitor only a few border crossing and only about 1/40 of the borderline.

            >Not a single Russian soldier or major weapon has been seen.

            STOP LYING!

            OSCE is not allowed to check person id’s on border, or to see what’s inside trucks and buses with tinted windows.
            Anyway they have calculated more than 20 000 border crossings of soldiers to and from Russia.

            Also huge amount of Russian weapons reported also by OSCE.
            (Igor Girkin admitted that they managed to capture only three tanks, now novorussia perhaps has strongest military of the whole europe, 600 tanks etc. all visible via google earth & photographs etc.)

          • Len

            Kimmo…

            >You fail to mention that OSCE monitor only a few border crossing and only about 1/40 of the borderline.

            == if the Ukraine-Russian border is so problematic.. whatever happened to the fence the Ukraine was building. If it is/was so IMPORTANT to national security why not finish it?

            >>Anyway they have calculated more than 20 000 border crossings of soldiers to and from Russia.

            Who calculated this .. the OSCE? Or the Ukrainians? Love to see those calculations 🙂

            >Also huge amount of Russian weapons reported also by OSCE.

            they have? what kind of Russians weapons we talking abt here.. hand weapons or things like tanks, BUK missile launchers.. what exactly? Most of the mentions of tanks I have seen have said of unknown origin or no markings… got any links where they actually say Russian tanks or Russian whatever?

            >(Igor Girkin admitted that they managed to capture only three tanks, now >novorussia perhaps has strongest military of the whole europe, 600 tanks etc.
            >all visible via google earth & photographs etc.)

            wow.. Novorussia has such a powerful military force??? w/ 600 tanks? mmmm.. wow.. hard to believe.. can you post a link to these easily seen tanks on Google Earth or at least provide some coordinates.. like to see some of this fearsome army 🙂

          • KimmoK

            “On 17 November 2016, US Ambassador Daniel Baer told the OSCE Permanent Council in Vienna that the Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine had observed 30,000 individuals in military-style dress crossing from Russia to Ukraine at the two checkpoints to which the OSCE has access.”

            “Apparently, this number has been observed over the SMM’s total monitoring time in Ukraine, as on 16 July 2016 Baer assessed the number as 28,000.”

            “Daniel Baer noted that the individuals reportedly receive weapons once they arrive in separatist-held parts of Ukraine and reported that 20 uniformed persons crossed the border in a single bus with tinted windows in mid-October.”

            “The US representative also stressed that at least 27 different occasions, the Observer Mission has reported seeing funerary vehicles returning to Russia with a sign reading “Cargo 200” or “200,” a well-known code for Russian military casualties, the most recent of which was on October 27. In the last three months alone, 48 ambulances and four unmarked funerary transport crossed the border from Ukraine to Russia.”

            Surely Ukrainian rebels are not taken to Russia for funeral?

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