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Buk Launch Site Data in the Dutch Safety Board’s MH17 Investigation

October 17, 2015

By Aric Toler

One of the most contentious and important points of the investigation into the downing of MH17 is the launch site for the Buk missile that caused the tragedy of July 17, 2014. The newly released Dutch Safety Board (DSB) investigative report dismisses all alternative scenarios other than a Buk missile launch, including the possibilities of air-to-air cannon fire and an air-to-air missile. Thus, the remaining and confirmed scenario—downing by a Buk missile carrying a 9N314M warhead—becomes the sole focus of the international investigation. While the DSB did not assign blame (as it is explicitly disallowed from doing this), it did provide vital clues as to who was in possession of the Buk system that downed MH17.

This article will analyze the available information from the DSB report and remarks from the head of the DSB investigation. This information will be compared with the launch sites proposed by Almaz-Antey, Christopher Miller & Roland Oliphant (previous discovered by Ukraine@War and @Wowihay, later confirmed by Bellingcat, and other studies), Correct!v, the Russian Ministry of Defense, and Meduza writer Sergey Parkhomenko. Additionally, this article will parse the reasons for the various conflicting launch sites proposed by Almaz-Antey in the DSB and its own two press conferences.

Flight Path Simulations

The DSB conducted a thorough investigation into the possible flight paths from a Buk missile, taking into account simulations conducted by the Dutch National Aerospace Laboratory (NLR), the Kyiv Research Institute for Forensic Expertise, and the Russian Buk missile manufacturer Almaz-Antey. Additional research from the Netherlands Organisation for Applied Scientific Research (TNO) was used in various models of warhead detonation, though this organization did not carry out their own flight path simulation. Each of the three organizations carrying out flight path simulations used different data sets, as seen below, which assumed that a 9N314M warhead exploded above and to the left of the plane’s nose. As described later in this article, Almaz-Antey’s flight path simulation used the data set provided by the TNO.

warhead_table

The simulation data provided by the NLR is by far the widest, encompassing a 320 square-kilometer area. Speaking with journalists, Tjibbe Joustra, head of the DSB investigation, confirmed that the area that the Buk was fired from was controlled by separatists on July 17, 2014.

nlr_map

The simulation carried out by the Kyiv Research Institute with NLR’s data is much narrower, with only a 4 square-kilometer area:

kyiv_map

The Almaz-Antey simulation is not quite as simple as those from the NLR and Kyiv Research Institute. The Russian simulation used the data set provided by the TNO:

Page 145 of DSB report

Page 145 of DSB report

However, as noted in the DSB report, the calculations from Almaz-Antey are consistent with the Kyiv Research Institute and NLR flight path simulations. The Russian Buk manufacturer carried out separate simulations for a 9M38 missile, and another for a 9M38M1 missile.

almaz_maps

The red outline with numbered corners should be ignored, as it denotes outdated calculations from the NLR. The Almaz-Antey simulated flight paths for the 9M38 and 9M38M1 missiles are marked by the red and blue outlines (respectively).

The DSB was clear in saying that no other positions, when considering the pattern of damage on MH17, is possible for a Buk missile launch. Thus, all launch sites outside of the combined areas from the three simulated flight paths are impossible.

dsb_combined_maps

The three simulated flight paths—including the two from Almaz-Antey with differing missile types—are compatible, with the exception of a small sliver in the northwest of the Almaz-Antey 9M38 missile simulation. However, as will be detailed in the following section, there are major caveats with the Almaz-Antey flight path simulation, as explored in the report’s appendices and Almaz-Antey’s two self-contradicting press conferences.

Almaz-Antey’s Divergent Findings

In viewing the launch site map provided by the DSB, it is easy to initially think that Almaz-Antey is in near-complete agreement with the Ukrainian and Dutch scientists and engineers. However, as Almaz-Antey’s two (self-contradicting) press conferences and Appendix Y of the report illustrate, the Buk missile manufacturer has quite divergent ideas regarding the plane damage pattern and missile detonation point, and thus the launch site location.

The various warhead test locations are listed in Appendix Y, with the most successful and reliable location–provided by Dutch scientists–and by far the least accurate location–provided by Almaz-Antey:

appendix_conclusions

As you see in the table, the azimuth and elevation of the missile in Almaz-Antey’s calculations are drastically different than the accurate models. The difference in azimuth (-27 degrees compared to -72) is due to the differing incoming location, with Zaroshchenske compared to south of Snizhne. The Almaz-Antey calculated elevation of 22 degrees is due to the same reason. According to the rocket trajectories provided by Almaz-Antey, a 9M38M1 missile fired 16km from MH17 will strike the target at an elevation of 22 degrees–the same as the calculations that Almaz-Antey provided to the DSB. The launch site near Zaroshchenske proposed by Almaz-Antey is approximately 16km from the MH17 impact point, and a bit further than 72 degrees away with the calculated azimuth.

 

The 9M38 missile engine stops after 15 seconds, while the 9M38M1 lasts 20 seconds, altering the missile’s elevation at strike point. In its initial findings, Almaz-Antey found that the 9M38M1 was used with a 9N314M warhead, thus the calculations submitted to the DSB were made under the assumption that the 9M38M1 missile was used. In their first press conference, Almaz-Antey went out of its way to confirm that all of its test data pointed to an 9M38M1 missile with a 9N314M warhead:

aa-press aa-press

Therefore, we can summarize the various Almaz-Antey launch sites after interpreting the detonation point data in Appendix Y. Let’s take a second look at the Almaz-Antey flight path simulations while using the TNO detonation point data (with more credible azimuth and elevation calculations). The northwestern, red zone is for the 9M38 missile, and is quite unlikely due to its close proximity to heavily populated areas. The southeastern blue zone, which closely matches the site proposed by Ukraine, Bellingcat, and others, is calculated for the 9M38M1 missile. The 9M38 missile area was approximately 20 square kilometers, while the 9M38M1 area was 63 square kilometers.

almaz_maps

In summary, the detonation point data provided by Almaz-Antey was wildly divergent from the multiple Dutch sets of detonation point data, even when using the correct missile type of the 9M38M1. However, when presented with the detonation point data set and missile type that were confirmed by numerous experiments, Almaz-Antey’s findings agree with the findings of Bellingcat and other analysts.

Comparisons Between All Proposed Launch Sites

The embedded Google Map below compares all available data provided by Almaz-Antey and the DSB on the range of potential launch sites. Four proposed launch sites have been juxtaposed with these areas. Click through the map to view a legend to differentiate the various areas and markers. Thank you to Bellingcat contributor Klement Anders for compiling the area data on the below map.

Clearly, the Miller/Oliphant and Parkhomenko launch sites fit perfectly within the zones calculated by all parties using the most credible detonation point data. The Zaroshchenske sites are, in contrast, not even within the most extreme range of the broad area calculated by the NRL. Additionally, the launch site proposed by Correct!v is not within any calculations from the Dutch, Ukrainians, or Russians.

Aric Toler

Aric Toler started volunteering for Bellingcat in 2014 and has been on staff since 2015. He currently heads up Bellingcat's training efforts and its Eastern Europe/Eurasia research.

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365 Comments

  1. Randy Dread

    Dude – October 21st, 2015
    Yea.. typical lingo of a putler-troll.
    Randy troll, you should famiarize yourself with the most recent facts – how much investors run away from russia now, and how much russia economy drops.. then you will see what state has failed…

    But they aren’t running away. Ford just opened a new plant there.

    And think of the orders for the Russian defence industry after their current demo in Syria.

    In contrast, Ukraine is about to default (again) on debt, when the Russians call in what they are owed.

    How do you think it looks to investors when Ukraine is acting like a deadbeat with billions of dollars of other peoples’ money?

    Reply
    • Dude

      Hehe:

      New car sales in Russia are forecast to drop 36 percent this year to 1.55 million, according to the Moscow-based Association of European Businesses (AEB). In January-July, sales fell 35 percent, year-on-year, the AEB said.

      Ford’s sales in Russia fell 52 percent in January-July, even though it launched four new models in the country this year. It also took control of the Ford-Sollers venture, which was in the red last year due to the economic slump.

      Carmakers with models targeted at middle-class buyers and heavily dependent on imported components have been hit hardest.

      General Motors Co (GM.N) said in March it would shut its plant in St Petersburg and wind down sales and production of its Opel brand in Russia as it did not want to make significant investments in a tumbling market.

      ………………..

      P.S. Randy troll, as i suggested above – please do go to to “burst in the seams” elsewhere. You are off-topic here! Hehe

      Reply
      • Randy Dread

        oh but sales in Russia arent that important.

        these cars will go all over the world.

        thanks to the weak ruble, Russia has never been a better place to invest.

        as for General Motors, it’s a failed, bankrupt company. Nobody cares about them.

        Reply
        • Lenomdeplume

          CRA made in Russia will go all over the world? Seriously? Because “Made in Russia” means a quality product….right? The last world famous Russian car was the Trabandt…which was last photographed discarded in an East German dumpster one week after the wall fell. Your claims are pathetic, even for a Pu-troll.

          Reply
      • Randy Dread

        America is a paper tiger.

        And it needs to stop polluting our countryside with its crashed planes.

        Close the US bases here.

        Reply
    • Dude

      Randy: Russia has never been a better place to invest.

      🙂 troll making himself a clown – amusing

      Reply
      • Randy Dread

        that’s how economics works.

        when a currency is low, it’s a good place to invest, as long as other prerequisites such as a strong government are in place.

        Reply
        • Andrea

          RANDY there’s a big difference between delocalization (move plants where work costs less) and invesments…
          What you posted is nothing more than what nike does in vietnam, apple in china and so on..nothing brilliant

          Reply
          • Randy Dread

            You’d better write to the British government about that, because they class foreign owned car plants as investments.

            as does the World Bank and every other insititution you can think of.

          • Andrea

            Spend your money to gai other money = investment…not that difficult 😉

            But as stated before if you delocalize your production that’s not a good thing…you simply want the cheapest man-power possible…and according your logic we should be allowed that russia is like taiwan/china/vietnam/cambodia…wow, that seems good…

            Instead for example russian oligarchs themselves invest their money buying flats in london
            Where i live (milan) petrodollars from gulf countries are buying the newest skyscrapers….THAT’S INVESTMENT 😉

      • Mad Dog

        How about a strong TRANSPARENT government, which would seem to rule out both the CCCP (sic) and the ChiComs (as we have seen lately).

        Reply
    • Mad Dog

      Looks to me Randy, that this well used combat plane was directly aimed at farmland sacrificing the life of the pilot in order to spare others. If this was due to age or some other malfunction, we still don’t know. But the pilot not ejecting suggests the above. Plus, this flight was not based in the UK, but on the way home from Bahrain, a long flight that put a lot of strain on both pilots and aircraft. Betcha your Russian buddies are a bit jealous of the capabilities of these “clapped out” fighters….

      Reply
  2. Dude

    Could this randy clown be a Graham Phillips – a servile valet to terrorussians in the occupied Donbass?

    Reply
      • Dude

        > Never been to Ukraine or Russia.

        And yet, you speak literally with the citations from the handbook of putler trolls. With those that they infested the web-space of Ukraine and other neighbouring countries with..

        Sad, sad, pathetic randy troll 🙂

        Reply
        • Randy Dread

          I invariably find people who use the infantile phrase ‘putler’ are euro trash from eastern europe.

          Reply
          • Dude

            And those who call fascist anyone against russia are TROLLS
            ……..
            They are called imbeciles…

            or perhaps randy clown himself belongs to UKIP or some other white trash – and receives his daily sixpense from putler for polluting internet forums with russian propagandist diarrhea.

            Putler is well known to sponsor all sorts of white trash across europe – ukip front national jobbik or whatever they are called…

  3. Randy Dread

    I call actual fascists fascists.

    That goes for Ukrainian groups such as Right Sector, and also Andrea’s family who are Italian fascists.

    Other than that I don’t throw the word fascist around.

    Reply
    • boggled

      Randy, look up
      Русский национальний союз
      and
      Российское национальное единство
      and
      Северний аллиянс

      And tell me what their flags look like to you.

      And did you know each of them and their members have been spotted inside Eastern Ukraine?

      Fare thee well

      Reply
        • Dude

          You do need to know russian, sad and randy clown..

          Just google Мильчаков

          and enjoy the images.. i believe ure gonna like them.

          Reply
      • Dude

        I’d suggest also googling Milchakov ( Мильчаков). One of thise typical russian neo-nazis who is terrorizing Donbass people now.

        In his free time he enjoys decapitating dogs and posing with their cut-off heads on the internet.

        Perhaps he does it out of sheer sympathy and allegiance to north korea and kim jong un personally?

        Russian isis of a sort… n’est ce pas?

        of course this milchakov is just a brainless dumb body driven to do what he does by main russian fascists and nazis – kremlin elite and putler as its head..

        Reply
      • stranger

        In Russia they are very scarce margins, not supported by people. I’ve never even heard about “Северний аллиянс” and especially why it is spelled with orthographic errors?

        Reply
          • boggled

            outcasts is the best I can think of, anti-social is a good one, anarchists is a British term describing the same.
            small cults, cult followers, the forgotten, the refuse (trash) of society.
            There are many similar ones hard to think of the exact one.
            Where it changes is the FSB is using these groups for their purpose.
            And those violent groups are mainly the ones being sent to Ukraine to fight for the organized criminal warlords.

            Another good name that reminds me of a movie is ‘ The Lost Boys ‘
            Not exactly same type of person, but a good descriptive name.
            I think it describes the Vampires more then the vampire hunters in the movie.

            Fare thee well

          • boggled

            derelicts, criminals, castaways, degenerates are a few other valid English terms.

            Fare thee well

        • boggled

          stranger,
          try a search for ‘half the world’s neo nazis’
          Produces some interesting results also.
          Many of those articles are older, when Russia and the West were on better relations.

          This is just one group of RF citizens.
          Then you could look at the Radical Islamist and other groups that frequent are in the news about RF.
          You know it as well as I do.

          Anyways, those are who the FSB and Putin are recruiting and sending to Ukraine to fight in a war that Kremlin sponsored media proclaims is against Ukraine the nation of fascists and neo nazis.
          We are trying to express to level headed Russian citizens why we are so appalled, but many of them just do not get what hate and cruelty the Kremlin and FSB and vova is sending to Donbas in the name of yanukothief.

          Fare thee well

          Reply
    • Dude

      Fascist of the future will call themselves anti-fascists (c) 🙂
      /citation wrongly attributed to churchill.. but true nevertheless../

      Randy Clown how is that ure so sure about the the right sector if u ve never been to Ukraine?

      Right sector fyi enjoys about 1% support in ukraine and isnt represented in parliament or government..

      Reply
      • Randy Dread

        Right Sector is very powerful in Ukraine. They are extremists who are armed and dangerous.

        The official Ukrainian supposed government is unable to control them.

        That’s one reason, in my view, why nobody invests a penny in Ukraine. What we have here is a failed state.

        Reply
        • Andrea

          They seems so many because they are always on the streets…
          And if you think for 5 seconds you can realize that as russia is brainwashing its new generations with anti-nato thoughts probably in ukraine is happening the same.

          Nationalists get power as your nation is in trouble (ukraine) or if it is said to be in danger (russia).

          Reply
          • Dude

            Nationalists (as in ukrainian ethnic nationalists) did not get power in Ukraine…

            The majority of current members of parliament and in the government are russian-speaking…

            The outstanding thing about Ukraine now is that the vast majority of population, regardless of their language or ethnicity (jew including, ti cite a few Kolomojsky, Parlament Speaker Groisman, president Poroshenko has jewish roots ) united agains the aggression of russian orks.

            Sapienti Sat.

          • stranger

            In Russia Nazis are a few marginal groups, very unpopular and scarce. Extremists are prohibited, but some grey area exist.

            In Ukraine the Right Sector, (Dmytro Yarosh), battalion Azov, Oleh Tyahnybok, etc, are not very popular either, and didn’t gain a lot of votes on the last elections. Nevertheless they work officially, they have own military battalions which doesn’t subordinate to Ukrainian army and took part in the military actions in Eastern Ukraine independently.

            The Nazi parades in Ukraine with torches yelling ‘moskalyaku na gilyaku’, even very seldom, cannot be even imagined in Russia.

            On Maidan during the government overthrow in Ukraine, Nazies played noticeable role, were burning police with Molotov cocktails, hit with chains, etc. Police had an order not to answer, until fire arms and sniper riffles appeared, nobody still knows where from and who started firing. The investigation has never been completed. Even though Nazies are scarce, they are most active, and during revolutions they come into view.

            Most Ukrainians don’t support Nazies, that is true!!! Elections showed that! But they exist in Ukraine, not fought with, and more noticeable than in Russia.

            Concerning anti NATO thoughts in Russia, that is more like ‘phantom pains’ since soviet times. That has nothing to do with nationalism.

          • boggled

            Three links strange and I hope you take your time with them and followup with the related articles links at the bottom of these.

            This site is a good one, critical of both Ukraine and Russia.
            Of Government and the Militaias of both sides.

            Look through it, and I would enjoy your thoughts.
            To me, there is a lot of truth here.
            You can click RU, EN, or UA as your reading language.
            or just browser translate.

            Circus trials in Russia http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1436104753

            Kyiv’s ineffectiveness of Putting BERKUT snipers on trial. http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1445132308

            Russian ‘fascists’ – http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1445287320

            Ukrainian ‘fascists’ – http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1396527934

            And Odessa – http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1441584924

            Fare thee well

      • Rick

        How the heck Randy Clown could you know the Right Sector has anything but a minor presence there, if you have never been there.
        There are lots of neo nazis in canada.. doesn’t mean they rule anything

        Reply
  4. Randy Dread

    this is false of course.

    fanatical Unrainian nationalism is now the norm in Ukraine. Does Poroshenko speak Russian in his addresses to the nation? I don’t think so.

    Speaking Russian is likely to get you killed in Lviv and similar extremist locations.

    THe fact is that pro Ukraine Ukrainians are maniacs, racists and murderers just as they were in world war 2, when they happlily joined the SS to send Jews to the gas chambers.

    Everyone knows this, even the Poles.

    And this is why Ukraine will forever be a failed state. Because it has Ukrainians in it.

    Reply
    • boggled

      You and others might like this article Randy,
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_portrayal_of_the_Ukrainian_crisis

      In which it states plainly about Pravy Sektor (Right Sector) –
      ➡ ‘The Russian media focused particularly on Right Sector, portraying the group as powerful, fascist, and neo-Nazi and saying that it was persecuting Russian-speakers and Jews’

      and
      ➡ ‘The Associated Press and other international news organizations found no evidence that the group had committed hate crimes.’

      The Kremlin has failed and is turning RF into a failed state.

      Fare thee well

      Reply
    • Dude

      Speaking Russian is likely to get you killed in Lviv and similar extremist locations.

      🙂 🙂 🙂

      Randy clown, u stated before that you have never been to Ukraine? Maybe this is why you brainlessly reiterate the most ridiculous quirks of russian propaganda?

      Or maybe you are not a Briton at all, and you’re a just a savage russian ork who just learned english enough to make a fool of yourself in the internet forums?

      🙂

      Reply
      • Randy Dread

        Read Schindler’s Ark, the book Schindler’s List is based on.

        There are frequesnt references to Ukrainian SS guarding the concentration camps.

        Reply
        • boggled

          Ukraine had three bad choices.
          occupation by Russia
          occupation by Germany
          die fighting two nations with larger armies that was waging war on Ukraine and Poland at the same time.
          They chose the third option and put a lot of confusion into the mix as they were fighting to survive.
          They played both sides, Germany and Russia, off of each other and did manage to keep their nation from totally being turned into a wasteland.

          Stephan Bandera himself was placed in a concentration camp of Germany for much of the second world war.
          Randy, if your making these statements and connecting Ukraine to Hitler.
          I can just imagine that your really a bigoted racist when the discussion is about Germany.

          Fare thee well hate monger that is a dweller on the past.

          Reply
    • boggled

      Randy, You are really starting to sound like a fascist bigot racist.
      Do you belong to RNS?
      Was one of your buddies Pavel Guberev?

      The hate you express against the whole of Ukraine makes you a very bitter person, and it shows by your repetition of so many lies and falsehoods.

      You are beginning to sound like Stalin or Hitler and their calls for mass genocide.
      You need to do a little self reflection and talk with a religious leader or a brain doctor before this bitterness eats up your soul and you do something despicable.

      Fare thee well

      Reply
      • Dude

        >Randy, You are really starting to sound like a fascist bigot racist.

        Yes, he does, and i believe this is what he truly is.

        No matter if he is is a Briton disguised as a putler-troll for money, or he”s an outright putler-troll

        Sapienty sat.

        Reply
      • Mad Dog

        Uh, well, the good fairy in the form of Papa Joe, visited his benevolence on the Ukraine in the form of mass starvation. It is no wonder many in the Ukraine welcomed German troops (at first) as they were seen as a godsend from the unceasing brutality of the NKVD and others. Randy, if you saw your little sister or brother starving to death despite the extreme efforts of your parents to feed them anything at all including tree bark and grass soup, you would probably have leaned very heavily into the anti-communist column. If you were Polish and had your officer father brutality murdered along with thousands of others in the Katyn Forest, you probably would have done the same. Russian has always tried to make the Ukraine a ‘pitiful’ nation, killing millions and ruining the lives of millions more right up to the present day. Same goes for Chechnya. Papa Joe came in a little late to the game but upped the brutality and the present Russian regime has given nothing in return for the depredations outside of Scuds and brutal warfare (They are all Muslim terrorists, though, right?). You should really go to Russia as it will be an educational experience that you seem to sorely lack.

        Reply
        • stranger

          Nonsense! The mass starvation of 1932-1933 was over the whole Soviet Union, they tried probably to borrow wheat from the most rich areas to less fruitful ones. Ukraine had the most fruitful soles due to warmer climate. Historians never proved the starvation was intentionally targeted against Ukrainians. That is only what Ukrainian parliament recognized as genocide in 2006(!) due to political PR, but not agreed by all historians.

          Stalin’s times were very harsh for everybody in Soviet Union. BTW Stalin was an ethnical Georgian, not Russian, and Krustchev who presented Crimea to Ukraine as a gift was Ukrainian himself.

          Entire Russian state system originated from Kievian Rus where the modern Kiev is, in the medieval times and multiple kingdoms of dukes. Later the western areas of modern Ukraine for centuries belonged to Poland (Rech-Pospolita), Austro-Hungarian Empire with mixed ethnical population. While the eastern areas for centuries were parts of Russian Empire with high percentage of Russian population. Crimea used to be even Turkish, and few Ukrainians lived there until it was joined to Russian Empire.

          Ukrainian’s fight for independence started that times against Polish dominance in western areas. Stepan Bandera which is pronounced as a hero in modern Ukraine was actually a terrorist slaughtering Pole and Jewish civilians. Without better heroes. Ukraine don’t even want to admit that many world-famous Ukrainian writers wrote originally in Russian.

          When those western areas were joined to the Soviet Union they formed the modern Ukrainian territory together with eastern parts. Having rich fruitful soles many Ukrainian ‘farmers’ were not happy with soviet collectivization and nationalization of private property.

          During WWII many mostly western (!) not eastern Ukrainians thought that Hitler may give them independence or at least what’s the difference between Poles, Stalin, Hitler. There were several Ukrainian battalions which fought for Hitler and were known for their cruelty. Many other Ukrainians fought against Hitler in Soviet Army.

          In later soviet times Ukraine was relatively high developed comparing to the rest of the USSR. During the collapse of Soviet Union the republics were cut just by the formal administrative borders as appeared on that moment.

          Modern Ukraine consists of people of many nationalities with about 20% totally and up to 37% in eastern areas of ethnical Russians. That’s why it so dangerous to raise national question in Ukraine.

          Ukrainians though are known to be somewhat sly people, never taking responsibility for their faults and always finger pointing and blaming Russia for all their problems. 😉 That is exactly how their government is building the strategy now.

          Reply
          • boggled

            stranger –
            Dates of recognition of Holodomor genocide by various nations can be found here.
            http://canada.mfa.gov.ua/en/ukraine-%D1%81%D0%B0/holodomor-remembrance/holodomor-international-recognition

            United Kindgom is supposed to be voting on it soon I hear.
            You might learn some more facts about it.

            There is a difference between the Holodomor and the general Soviet Famine of 1932-33.

            This page describes some of the legal issues and investigation.
            http://canada.mfa.gov.ua/en/ukraine-%D1%81%D0%B0/holodomor-remembrance/holodomor-remembrance-ukraine/holodomor-security-service-investigation

            Secret documents signed by Stalin will be presented to all historians and it will become an accepted fact of genocide.

            If you deny the forced deportation of Ukrainians and Crimean people and resettling of Russians there, as well as all the other documented abuses by the Kremlin, you are part of the brainwashed or brainwashers and a reason why RF is out of touch with the rest of the globe.
            You should do some more research on Holodomor and why so many nations are sooo happy to be ride of the oppression of the Kremlin.

            And if you do not think that the Kremlin illegally occupied, and instead it was a saviour of, Poland, East Germany, and so many other countries for generations, then you should ask yourself why so many are happy to be finally shutting the door on the Kremlin and telling them to leave.
            And those nations are finally prospering themselves.

            Fare thee well

          • Mad Dog

            Stranger, you really fell for that Soviet era propaganda. The whole famine was not even recognized in the USSR until much later on. Despite all that you posted, kind of an apologists mantra, the facts are much different, so much so that in 2003 this was signed in the UN:

            In the former Soviet Union millions of men, women and children fell victims to the cruel actions and policies of the totalitarian regime. The Great Famine of 1932–1933 in Ukraine (Holodomor), took from 7 million to 10 million innocent lives and became a national tragedy for the Ukrainian people. In this regard we note activities in observance of the seventieth anniversary of this Famine, in particular organized by the Government of Ukraine.
            Honouring the seventieth anniversary of the Ukrainian tragedy, we also commemorate the memory of millions of Russians, Kazakhs and representatives of other nationalities who died of starvation in the Volga River region, Northern Caucasus, Kazakhstan and in other parts of the former Soviet Union, as a result of civil war and forced collectivisation, leaving deep scars in the consciousness of future generations.

            And, dear Russia was a signatory. Anyway, 84% of the famine victims were Ukrainian and only 4% Russian. A bit fishy eh. Eye witnesses and documents show that not a bit of edible food was to be left in villages, leaving the people to eat grass, stones, tree bark and each other, and at least 5 million tons of grain were shipped out of the area, enough to feed most of the needy. Stalin and his minions were just getting started and the purges and the Gulags and the shipment of whole populations to desolate parts of the country (this ties in with your Chechnya theory, another long sad story beginning in Czarist times) led to huge numbers of deaths and ruined lives. Believe what you will, but the Soviet version doesn’t hold water. Over 3 million deaths prove that.

          • stranger

            Please take a look at UN declaration on Holodomor (famine 1932-1933):

            https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Joint_Statement_on_Holodomor

            “Honoring the seventieth anniversary of the Ukrainian tragedy, we also commemorate the memory of millions of Russians, Kazakhs and representatives of other nationalities who died of starvation in the Volga River region, Northern Caucasus, Kazakhstan and in other parts of the former Soviet Union, as a result of civil war and forced collectivization, leaving deep scars in the consciousness of future generations.”

            Where does it say about Russian genocide against Ukraine? The drought affected Russian Volga river, Caucasus, Kazakhstan, the west Siberia and many other areas. Besides the drought itself, the famine was also a result of soviet collectivization and nationalization of private property. Ukraine has always been an agricultural producer because of warm climate and fruitful soles. When Stalin withdrew wheat to feed less fruitful areas, to nationalize the ‘farmers’ lands and property as through the entire ussr, may be also to suppress resistance (but please provide a link to confirming historical documents), why does Ukraine call it an act of (national) genocide targeted especially against Ukraine?

            “Anyway, 84% of the famine victims were Ukrainian and only 4% Russian” – where do you get such numbers? According to Britannica “Some 4 to 5 million died in Ukraine, and another 2 to 3 million in the North Caucasus and the Lower Volga area”. Also who do you call Ukrainians – who were Russians and other nationalities living at Ukrainian territory? Who conducted the Stalin’s plans of collectivization in Ukraine, served in NKVD and other soviet punitive structures – the same Ukrainians.

            If we are talking about ethnicity (which I really hate), Stalin was Georgian, take a look at heads of soviet government that times – you could hardly see any Russian name. Stalin’s deportations affected many other nationalities. Deportation of Germans from Volga river to Kazakhstan, of Crimea Tatars (mostly not Ukrainians) from Crimea, others. Stalin times were harsh and Russia was the first to suffer.

            Take a look at the other side of the border during that times – the western parts of the modern Ukraine, which were under Poland. You can google Polish name “Kresy Wschodnie”, “Poland-Ukraine relationships”. Poles didn’t consider Ukrainians’ as equal, in contrast to soviets btw, where the ‘class fight’ was primary, instead of nationality. The mass migration of Poles into eastern areas, forced assimilation, deportation of Ukrainians to western areas of Poland, mass repressions, etc. Stephan Bandera, a modern Ukrainian hero, appeared in Poland in a response to that, actually killing civil Poles and Jews, nowadays would be called a terrorist, and Poles responded with mass ‘collective responsibility’ repressions. Poles suppressed the first uprising for Ukrainian independence after the collapse of Austro-Hungarian empire. If not for that, Ukraine would have appeared as an independents state 80 years before the Gorbachev’s ‘perestroyka’ and the following collapse of USSR. Western Ukraine had really difficult history of survival.

            If you dig into history so deep and talk about nationalities, why don’t you blame Poles instead, or maybe Georgians for Stalin? And nowadays Ukraine, Georgia, Poland are the best friends, united against the ‘aggressive’ Russia, well supported by some western countries, who pursue their own interests. I don’t argue historical facts, but that pre-selection of facts and pressure of Ukraine diaspora over the world to accept single-sided political manifests is related to pure politics.

          • boggled

            stranger,
            you – but please provide a link to confirming historical documents

            me – From my second link in the comment below the reply for this thread a couple revealing statements.
            I quote – ‘3456 found and declassified documents of the Communist party and other executive organs, including those signed by I.V.Stalin;’
            and
            400 found and declassified documents of State Institutional Archive of the SBU which proved the starvation had been artificially organized by the executive power;
            and
            ‘archive documents that proved the mass resettling of ethnic Russians in Ukraine’

            I do not place blame on Stalin being a Georgian, you do.
            He was the leader and he worked from Moscow, therefore he represented all he was leader of that put him in power and never attempted to remove him from power if they felt his policies were bad for the nation.

            As far as the precise documents and what they say, you will have to do your own research, this is not the comment discussion for it.

            you – pre-selection of facts and pressure of Ukraine diaspora over the world to accept single-sided political manifests is related to pure politics

            me – That is exactly what the Kremlin has done with its secret history and denial of Stalin’s crimes.
            Ukraine is just exposing what the Kremlin has been lying about and covering up for many years, and they have the documents from their archives to prove it.

            Fare thee well

          • boggled

            stranger,
            Just reading through a couple of other articles and thought I would share a little more info about Holodomor if your interested.
            These are not my articles so I do not promote everything there as something I have further looked into, but I think they bear some scrutiny.
            If you have arguments, I would suggest reaching out to the article’s author, a fairly knowledgeable historian.
            I am just relaying some additional info for thought.

            http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/12/17/on-holodomor-denial-and-fisking-a-denialist-russian-professor-of-history/

            http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/09/15/stalins-genocidal-holodomor-campaign-of-1932-33-what-we-know-vs-the-denialist-lies/

            Fare thee well

          • stranger

            boggled,
            “Just reading through a couple of other articles and thought I would share a little more info about Holodomor if your interested.”
            I’ve read the article you gave, thank you for sharing, but…

            Who is the author James Oliver, his name is not googled, and even at Euromaidan site he is published in opinions section. His article is a bunch of emotional, politicized, categorical statements, based on nothing.

            He is saying about ‘USSR antisemizm’ which is ridiculous taking into account how many Jews, with a variety of nationalities, were in the soviet government.

            The letter from “the Secret Political Department of State Political Directorate of the Ukrainian SSR to Georgy Molchanov, the Head of the Secret Political Department of Joint State Political Directorate, September 10, 1932” – even if it is genuine, it is so vague (it is not translated completely in the article) stating literally “Denisenko, a scientiest and a student of prof Glushko, asked Kiev’s offical agent who is going to Moscow to say to his professor (“an old man”), that the famine was intended to suppress the Ukraine nation as the only nation capable of serious resistanse”. No kidding – that is written in russian in the letter and translated is only the last part of the letter.

            His other arguments… there are no any reliable evidence in the article to prove that famine was targeted against ethnics of national resistance.

            Early soviets and Stalin as a terrible, nowadays would be called a dictator, were fighting against private property, for collectivization, industrialization (grain was also a major export, you may google also ‘gold blockade of ussr’, which I don’t have any opinion yet), that was a ‘class fight’ instead of any alleged ethnic or national motives. Call it a genocide, but against an entire society class, over all nationalities including Russia.

            The statement of Putin controlling information about Stalin in the article is symptomatic telling why the article was written, but ridiculous. In Russia it used to be maybe a sensation 24 years ago when the soviet myths including Stalin were debunked, but nowadays this topic just is not so interested.

            In contrast to Ukraine, why are those historical events are recalled now, preselected and misinterpreted, political manifests are announced. This is going to be a new mythology targeted especially to divide Russia from Ukraine and other post soviet countries. Brzezinski comes into mind. Putin has done a lot to split our countries, but not only he…

          • boggled

            stranger,
            you mention -‘ ‘USSR antisemizm’ which is ridiculous’
            One of those grey areas where historical facts do not match with the Kremlin allowed version.
            With some soviet archives being opened, this issue tends to stand more on Mr. Oliver’s side then your POV.

            Even Nikita Khrushchev in his later writings said about Josef Stalin –

            ‘A hostile attitude toward the Jewish nation was a major shortcoming of Stalin’s. In his speeches and writings as a leader and theoretician there wasn’t even a hint of this. God forbid that anyone assert that a statement by him smacked of antisemitism. Outwardly everything looked correct and proper. But in his inner circle, when he had occasion to speak about some Jewish person, he always used an emphatically distorted pronunciation. This was the way backward people lacking in political consciousness would express themselves in daily life—people with a contemptuous attitude toward Jews. They would deliberately mangle the Russian language, putting on a Jewish accent or imitating certain negative characteristics [attributed to Jews]. Stalin loved to do this, and it became one of his characteristic traits.’

            taken from – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_and_antisemitism
            Of course not everything Nikita said should be taken at face value, like Kremlin sponsored media, but this statement does have a ring of truth to it.
            Nikita did like to exaggerate in order to make himself and his actions look better.

            You can also do a search for – russian anti-semitic propaganda
            And look at all those images there from the early days.

            Another wiki article goes into a little depth.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Soviet_Union

            Like you say, there is a lot of grey there.
            I just saw that article with a document posted and thought you might like to read some of it.

            With Moscow and Kyiv being alternative ‘heads’ of the Soviet empire, there was a lot of fighting both back and forth that way in history.

            I am not a expert about Moscow history, and there is a lot of history there.
            Just wanted to pass along some further articles for you to read and consider with what you already know.
            There are a lot of them written.
            And for me, I can understand some of the point that Anti-Zionism is not always anti Antisemitism.
            But I also understand all of antisemitic groups hide behind AntiZionism so they can spew their hate.

            Anyways, just thought it would be an interesting article, that had a historical document for you to read.

            Thanks for the evidence about the gold blockade of the time.
            I have read a little about this, and my take was that Gold was mainly obtained using Forced Labor Camps (Gulags) and the Western Trading partners were against that abuse.
            That was a large part of various embargoes against USSR goods.

            Stalin was trying to industrialize and the capitalists decided what they needed in trade, and gold was not high on the list.
            There was a gold ‘blockade’ but it only lasted for a few months from what I remember.
            Then there was later a gold blockade 2.
            But mostly it was Europe and America could get by without Moscow, but Moscow could not get by without the West.
            The West had the upper hand and used it to try and enforce human rights and other concerns at that time.
            Stalin did not like those capitalists and them telling him how to run a country.
            He also faced growing revolt in Ukraine, that was there before the ‘collectivization’.
            Because he could pay for ‘western’ items only with those things his ‘credit’ was good on and his plan was for a mass industrialization project of Moscow, he stole from various areas around CCCP to pay for the goods he WANTED so that he could industrialize .
            A giant Ponzi scheme.
            Did Moscow NEED to industrialize? debatable.
            Did Stalin and Moscow elite WANT to industrialize? Definitely.
            Stalin refused international help when the word got around about how bad it was.
            The reason, Moscow claimed officially there was NO grain shortage and no famine.
            So therefore how could they request help for something they did not acknowledge going on?
            The West knew it was going on, but Moscow refused to admit it because it would have been admitting targeting Ukraine with famine by stealing the grain from those groups to pay for Moscow’s industrialization.

            Fare thee well

          • stranger

            boggled,

            You gave the Khrushchev citation that Stalin made jokes on Jews. That is consistent with a lot of Jews were in the soviet government at that time. Leon Trotsky is the most known (I’m not talking about religion of course).

            Compare to what the Ukrainian nationalist Stephan Bandera and his followers OUN told at about the same times. Everything is wonderful in this passage:
            “The Jews in the USSR constitute the most faithful support of the ruling Bolshevik regime, and the vanguard of Muscovite imperialism in Ukraine. The Muscovite-Bolshevik government exploits the anti-Jewish sentiments of the Ukrainian masses to divert their attention from the true cause of their misfortune and to channel them in a time of frustration into pogroms on Jews. The OUN combats the Jews as the prop of the Muscovite-Bolshevik regime and simultaneously it renders the masses conscious of the fact that the principal foe is Moscow.”
            “Moskali (Russians), Poles, and Jews that are hostile to us must be exterminated in this struggle, especially those who would resist our regime: deport them to their own lands, importantly: destroy their intelligentsia that may be in the positions of power … Jews must be isolated, removed from governmental positions in order to prevent sabotage, those who are deemed necessary may only work with an overseer… Jewish assimilation is not possible.”
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
            Bandera as a leader of Ukrainian nationalists is announced as a hero fighter for Ukrainian independence nowadays in Ukraine starting from president Ushchenko, streets in Lvov are named after him, monuments constructed.

            Bandera started their fight in Poland (modern western Ukraine, Galitsia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Ukrainian_minority_in_Poland The modern Ukrainian nationalists, the Right Sector and others are still from those western areas.

            Kulaks (wealthy private farmers) fought not for Ukrainian national idea but for their property. Instead of feeding starving, they burned grain not to give it to soviet government for free. The warm Ukraine climate gave the raise of small private bourgeois class much earlier than in Russia. That might explain according to some historians the difference in the national character and that the Stalin’s/soviet collectivization stroke those areas most.

            You said “The West had the upper hand and used it to try and enforce human rights and other concerns at that time. Stalin did not like those capitalists and them telling him how to run a country.” you are mixing up modern concepts with historical events into some phantasmagoric way. We are talking about 1917-1945, did Europe consider human rights? As much as in middle ages. Look at the Poland by the link above. Mussolity fass cizm is about to appear in Italy. Hitler with the dividing of Checz-Slovakia in 1938 and the following.

            “Did Moscow NEED to industrialize? debatable.” Many Russian oligarchs as well as many Ukranian ones are still exploiting the factories built during that industrialization.

            What I’m trying to say, there were a lot of harsh historical events in the beginning/middle of XX century and propagandists (propagandons) from whatever side are trying to exploit them very selectively to build a new mythology pursuing quite particular targets (call it polit-technology). It is difficult to clear the history from politics.

        • stranger

          Mad Dog, what do you know about Chechnya? The first Chechen war started during president Yeltsyn, long before Putin, due to clueless politics with also Russian oligarchs trying to involve Chechen leaders in their games. In 1995 Basaev took hostages in a maternity hospital in Budyonovsk, 129 civilians died.

          After the piece agreement between Russia and Chechnya in 1996 had been signed there were several years of piece.

          The second Chechen war started from invasion of armed groups of Basaev and Hattab (a terrorist from Saudi Arabia) in Dagestan next to Chechnia. When they were kicked off back, a series of terroristic acts were organized in Buynaks, Volgodonsk and Moscow. Living houses were blown at night with hundreds of civilians died.

          I used to live in Moscow, my subway line was blown in rush hours – 28 died, only because others were shielded by their bodies. Two multi-storiy buildings completely downed by explosion at Kashirskoe shosse and Gurianova st at night when people were sleeping. The explosives were found prepared at a building basement in my district. I remember how people self organized duty over night.

          Children hostages at school in Beslan, theater at Dubrovka in Moscow, numerous other blasts in Moscow and other cities. Read Wikipedia at least.

          Now Chechnia is actually bought with the highest rate of investments from budget per citizen compared to any other region in Russia. With a very specific leader – Kadyrov. But it would be better in this way than the other.

          Reply
          • Mad Dog

            No, the Chechnyans would have been far better off without Russia playing fatal games of the years. Perhaps you should do a bit more research on the whole question starting in the 17th or 18th century.

          • Mad Dog

            Well, “Mad Dog, what do you know about Chechnya? The first Chechen war started during president Yeltsyn” shows I know a bit more about Chechnya than you do, but I guess learning history from Soviet textbooks can be a problem. Did you know that Chechnya and Ingushetia were and independent country? That is until Lenin in his ultimate wisdom attacked them and absorbed those upstarts in to Rodina? Did you know they were one of the few areas to let in Ukrainians fleeing from that mass murdering going on and to actually give them food and shelter despite Stalins order to not do so? Probably not. But the Chechnyans have a long list of grievances against Rodina, not just that very unjust war.

          • stranger

            Mad Dog,
            “shows I know a bit more about Chechnya than you do” – That is good, we can learn something from each other probably.
            “Did you know that Chechnya and Ingushetia were and independent country?” – in 1918-1920? I didn’t know, trying to learn/refresh.
            That definitely started long before Lenin, in the times of Russian Empire – the last but one empire probably. (would we count China?)
            1783 – Russia and Georgia signed an agreement to protect Christian Georgia from Islamic Turkish and Persian (modern Iran) incursions.
            1817-1864 – Caucasian war, the empire was extending to the Islamic areas, modern Chechnya, Dagestan, Turkish Crimea (?), all Caucasus including Georgia and stopped only at Turkey borders.
            That may be not good, but pretty much like European politics of colonization and European empires that times. In Europe fortunately that ceased earlier – (just after Hitler). There is a good thing about empires – all nationalities have to live together and are at least announced equal.
            To the best of my understanding, after the communist revolution by Lenin in 1917, after the new soviet government exited WW1 and accepted defeat, and the civil war began, many regions of the former Russian Empire organized self proclaimed independent states. Looks pretty much like after the collapse of USSR(?) A democratic republic in Georgia, an Islamic state in Chechnya and others, which existed for just a few years.
            Wikipedia: There were 16 (!) self proclaimed governments in Ukraine in 1917-1920, including anarchists, Petlura, – they definitely failed to unite into a state. I have a really shallow understanding on Ukraine that times – would you tell more? The red army finally through terror defeated the elite (in all meanings including noble traditions) of Russian tsar army, and finally forcedly reunited all former empire regions (except those withdrawn at WW1 capitulation), forcing nationalization and collectivization, announcing to build communist. Many former Russian elite had to emigrate. That hit Russia itself more that anyone else.
            There were good things also (in say middle-time) USSR, and Ukrainians were definitely in favor, actually one can hardly distinct Russians and Ukrainians.
            Just trying to say it is not so simple as ‘Russian aggression’ or ‘Kremlin propaganda’.
            Not sure is it interesting to people at MH17 forum.

          • boggled

            Stranger, you may not consider it so simple.
            Let me give you a comparison.
            NATO versus Kremlin placement of troops in a county.
            NATO has to be asked by the the country that wants to be part of it, usually done by referendum or vote in democratic style.
            THEN NATO countries have to vote whether or not they want that country to be part of NATO.
            They have refused many and kicked out others, recently RF.
            Yes, RF was a part of NATO, do not let Kremlin propaganda make you forget that.
            And if asked and voted on, NATO leaves peacefully.

            NOW to Moscow intervention, what sovereign entire nation has invited Moscow to be active and part of the ruling class?
            Nope, East Germany did not chose Stalin.
            Poland? Nope
            Ukraine? Nope
            Estonia?
            Lithuania?
            Finland?
            Moldova?
            Georgia?
            Crimea?
            etc.
            The Kremlin either came in by force and occupied those territories (after world war two the West wanted to heal and did not want to begin another war, so the let the Kremlin claim those nations, but most countries did not recognize the legality of Moscow’s occupation and forced change of ownership)

            or it created and supported separatism and came in with military force to support those ‘ethnic Russians’ that Stalin had forcibly relocated into those countries while forcibly deporting the local populations and divide a Sovereign nation in half or less then half.

            That is not supporting a sovereign nations borders and the will of all the people there.
            It took a long time for the Baltics, the Poles, and East Germans to get the Kremlin out.
            Do you understand that a sovereign nation wanted Moscow to occupy her,they would ask her in.
            When has that happened?
            Why do you think many of the old Soviet Blocs are breaking away?
            Because Moscow is too nice to them?

            It is just ‘that simple’.
            And your right, this could be better discussed in other articles about these topics.
            And I am glad you are willing (and can) research and explore what different sides have to say about Kremlin approved history.
            Not everyone from RF or inside RF has that opportunity.

            Fare thee well

          • stranger

            Boggled, you tend to paint the world in black and white.

            NATO is happy now to find the long missing dear opponent again. Russia was not integrated to NATO afaik, but I know about collaboration, an airbase under Ulyanovsk, which helped NATO to fly to Afghanistan. And the collaboration/consultations stopped from the NATO side, not RF, recently. NATO in the Middle East didn’t asked a permission to enter, also bombing Yugoslavia in the center of EU… not so simple.

            Georgia actually asked Russia to come, in 1783…
            Eastern Europe… the changes were initiated by USSR itself, by Gorbachev, with his perestroika and glastnost. Baltic republics separated first, long before the collapse.

            There was a referendum over all USSR asking if people want to preserve the Soviet Union or separate. Most voted to keep USSR. Most of people in Ukraine voted to keep USSR. Nobody listened to peoples’ opinion, and other soviet republics, when 3 future presidents of independent countries: Russia, Ukraine and Belarus decided to split.

            Not sure why do you think people in RF has no access to information. Central TV… but some opposition press exists and the Internet is available. Also just before the collapse of USSR and actually during all 90th the soviet, Stalin, ‘myths’ were ‘debunked’ (in Russia, and probably all former USSR republics) and actually everything from USSR was mixed with dirt. Later it appeared that many of that (not everything), was no more than new myths. Post-soviet people are very cynical concerning politics and mass media because of that swings… not simple…

            sorry for the offtopic…

        • Randy Dread

          what a load of rubbish.

          Ukraine was actually specially favoured during the USSR era.

          the famine was universal in the USSR.

          Reply
          • Mad Dog

            Yeah Randy, dream on. The figures say something different as I noted above and the famine was only in certain parts of the USSR. Russian history from the eye of the Kremlin is pretty untrustworthy.

            Also, Dandy Randy, you made me choke on my coffee when I read this: “And think of the orders for the Russian defence industry after their current demo in Syria.” Hot damn, Russian industry at its finest (since they build other stuff no one wants).

    • Rick

      Of course everything you say Randy Clown is false. Full of fear mongering and exaggeration of facts. If you didn’t do it… You probably would not have a job. I feel sorry for you Randy Clown. Truly do feel sorry.. Eventually Ukraine will be part of the EU. 20 years maybe. Eventually Russia will aswell. This.. Putling lives in fear of everyday. He can oppress til that day..

      Reply
    • John Zenwirt

      “Everyone knows this, even the Poles.”

      I’m Polish, what would you know what a Pole thinks….?

      “Because it has Ukrainians in it.”

      That’s an obvious racist post and should be reported as such.

      Your comments about everyone in Ukraine show you think they are a virtual different class of lower humans.

      Reply
      • Aric Toler

        Agreed.
        Randy — all this talk about concentration camps and Nazis has absolutely nothing to do with MH17 or the DSB. Your posts, especially recently, have been borderline/outright racist against Ukrainians. So, cool it, and stay on topic. Having a different opinion is fine, but keep it within the bounds of reasonable discourse, and on topic with the subject at hand.

        Reply
  5. Randy Dread

    boggled – October 22nd, 2015
    stranger –
    Dates of recognition of Holodomor genocide by various nations can be found here.
    http://canada.mfa.gov.ua/en/ukraine-%D1%81%D0%B0/holodomor-remembrance/holodomor-international-recognition
    United Kindgom is supposed to be voting on it soon I hear.
    You might learn some more facts about it.

    The Uk has a lot of good historians so I highly doubt we’ll be voting to recognise this Ukrainian fantasy, but who knows.

    Canada is different of course, their society has been thoroughly contaminated by the Ukrainian war criminals they allowed to settle there.

    I wonder how many of those Ukrainians were concentration camp guards?

    Reply
    • boggled

      I am sure if you find evidence, you will let us know Randy.
      At thirty six million Canada has a smaller population than Ukraine 😉
      Of they people and families giving asylum in Canada from Ukraine, how many do you think could have changed that 36 million figure?
      10k maybe?
      And of that 10k, were any active with Hitler’s movement? Doubtful, but possible.
      More then likely it was asylum from Stalin repressions.
      And giving evidence of that.

      Contaminated? nahhh, those numbers are just a drop in the bucket compared to Canada’s population.
      You just keep showing your racism Randy.
      You demonstrate completely what a spiteful degenerate you really are.
      Keep on exposing yourself.
      You seem to like it.

      :Arrow: Mad Dog, thanks for pointing out your facts about Holodomor.
      Moscow’s propaganda machine has been telling the lie of it was a Soviet Famine and Ukraine was part of it.
      The Kremlin prevents Russians from knowing exactly what a Stalin ordered policy it was specifically aimed at Ukraine to devastate it and squashing the anti Moscow sentiments that were brewing after WW1.
      The point of the relocation of Ukrainian people to Gulags and relocating Russian citizens to Ukraine and the Kremlin gifting the new ethnic Russians in Ukraine stolen Ukrainian property is an important one as well.

      Fare the well

      Reply
    • Andrea

      Wow, an impressive work…but honestly most can’t understand much…

      By the way (correct if i’m wrong) to me it seems he uses the “approach angle” between buk and plane from A-A presentation.
      If he used the one used by DSB?

      Last: who is the author? He’s new even on that forum, same for the others commenting…

      Reply
    • Rick

      I was impressed with the 10th 11th and 12th words.. All spelled incorrectly.. Such a wonderful piece of troll drivel. Please check facts and spelling before creating these riveting fabrications.. Randy Clown.. What is your opinion.. Must be Neo Nazis who shot it down?

      Reply
    • Dude

      That is some illiterate bullshit… a bunch of arbitrary assumptions and a few lines of trivial progtamming just to justify the fake conclusions of russian liars..

      Reply
    • Mad Dog

      Well John, unless you have he names and addresses and work history and status of relatives and political affiliation and identifying scars or tattoos, all of what is said in that link is rubbish….just trying to beat Dandy Randy to the punch.

      Reply
  6. stranger

    Here is an opinion on MH17 report by a blogger, a historian from Donetsk, Ukraine:
    (in Russian)
    http://ukraina.ru/analytics/20151023/1014621570.html
    http://ukraina.ru/analytics/20151022/1014616116.html
    (google translation)
    https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fukraina.ru%2Fanalytics%2F20151023%2F1014621570.html&edit-text=&act=url
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fukraina.ru%2Fanalytics%2F20151022%2F1014616116.html

    He is saying:
    – both Ukrainian army and separatists were on the designated territory
    – the ‘intersected’ separatists’ audio record where they admitted they shot-down Boeing, spread by SBU (Ukrainian special service) and exposed by Dutch media, is not consistent with the report (fake)
    – Ukraine used military planes in the cities of Donbass. Ukraine never admitted bombing Luganks, claiming ‘it was an unknown plane in order to put a blame on Ukrainian army’.

    He is not completely unbiased, but himself is from Ukrainian Donetsk. There is no agreement on those events inside Ukraine itself.

    I just wanted to show the other side, not to justify Putin or whatever else.

    Reply
    • John Zenwirt

      ” There is no agreement on those events inside Ukraine itself.”

      Read the DSB report, they have done the work, all your un-biased mind needs is to read their work, or for that matter the crowd-sourced geo-location here @ bellingcat…

      Reply
    • Andrea

      He states that the audio recording must be fake because was impossible that SBU had it so early….And instead what did russia MoD ? Didn’t it spammed proofs the next day?

      He blames DSB for not having listened to the rebels … mah…

      Look for some of his biography…if u can find something…look at his “publications”… if some guys screams against bellingcat saying they are biased…

      Reply
      • stranger

        No, actually, he is saying, the ‘separatists’ at the audio record tell literally: “yes, ours shot down the plane, from the block-post at Chernuhino”. But Chernuhino is very far away to the north-west from the area presented in Boeing report. Ukraine including official representatives used to produce many other fakes retold not-critically by some western media. Claiming even that “Russia deployed a nuclear weapon in Donbass”.

        He is not un-biased definitely, but he is from eastern Ukraine and presents the sentiments wide spread at Donbass. The military actions were actually conducted in cities and other dense populated areas and thousands suffered civilians don’t feel very grateful to Ukrainian army (plus the independent battalions Azov, Right Sector from the west regions) who are supposed to free them. Many support rebels or blame both sides. Ukraine always answers: ‘terrorists fires to own cities themselves’.

        Now when the fire fortunately almost ceased after the Minks agreements and constant pressure of Oland and Merkel on Putin (it’s a big question if Putin actually can control the rebels) and also on Poroshenko (to resolve diplomatically, give amnesty, and more independence to those areas) there is a slight hope it will be settled down diplomatically.

        There should be investigation on those crimes from both sides, I agree. The Boeing is only the top of an iceberg.

        Reply
        • boggled

          stranger, the nuclear issue is a classified subject and I am sure that us, the regular people, will ever exactly know the truth.

          I do know a 3- 5 kg was attempted to be smuggled inside Ukraine about the time of Crimea referendum, and Ukraine stopped that.

          There are a lot of reports of strange testing going on.
          Some of the explosions have been larger then conventional explosives known to be in the area could explain.
          The images of craters of explosions of some were posted online.
          Even if they were ammo supply storage areas, it does not explain the size of crater or fireball that was witnessed..
          Although there have been covert operations that did destroy a couple, others were accidents of some sort.

          I am not saying DNR WAS experimenting with nuclear weapons, but that is one of the very few explanations that it could be.
          Trying to make a better GRAD missile or artillery shell is one.

          There was some fissile material moving around which is troubling.
          Especially concerning Chernobyl and what could happen.

          Anyways, all I am saying is do not discount the reports totally.
          vova did discuss and threatened use of tactical nukes.
          vova did fly over the English channel two separate times and began arming nukes.
          vova was throwing around the word nuke a lot at that time.
          There are questionable reports of him threatening Poroshenko, Merkel, and others for interfering with the Kremlin sphere of influence and if he did not get his way he might use them.
          He even voiced some of those same words at the Russian Youth camp he visited and did a public statement for.

          There is a possibility it was discussed and was in the process of happening, and with the reports in the news of it happening that got to Russian citizen’s media may have made vova think twice and withdraw those.

          The public may not know all the facts about it, so stranger I would not discount those statements as quickly as you are doing as fabrications.

          Fare thee well

          Reply
          • stranger

            “I do know a 3- 5 kg was attempted to be smuggled inside Ukraine about the time of Crimea referendum, and Ukraine stopped that.”
            Please don’t retell the fair-tales of SBU. If nuclear incidents even appeared it would have gained immediate attention.

            What I’m trying to say, Ukraine is not innocent in many respects. There no agreement between Ukrainians themselves inside the separatists areas at Donbass. The western media surprisingly has appeared mostly to retell the one side of a story, completely ignoring the other side.

          • boggled

            How many of these did you know about?

            https://pacs.einaudi.cornell.edu/sites/pacs/files/Gheorghe_After%20Crimea.pdf

            http://bigstory.ap.org/article/9f77a17c001f4cf3baeb28990b0d92eb/ap-investigation-nuclear-smugglers-sought-terrorist-buyers

            http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34461732

            As far as the other side of the story?
            What that ethnic Russians were in danger of loosing their lives before Moscow fassist, gru, and fsb came into Ukraine and broke into police stations and military bases and stole various automatic weapons and vehicles?
            All the beginning deaths were caused by Spetsnaz and the various separatists groups.
            Even Kyiv police killed Billy the Pravy Sektor leader that Russian FSB could never catch.
            No one was in danger until the organized crime groups, subservient to Moscow and the FSB, began their provocations.
            Such as the Odessa incident, the attack on the proUnity parade in Donetsk, etc.
            I am not ignoring, I see it I hear it, I investigate both sides of it, and I make a judgement.
            The Kremlin cause holds little water and it caused many needless deaths just as ASSad’s did.

            yanukothief is a criminal.
            Many of the politicians and government of Ukraine were bribe takers.
            Who taught them to do this and who gained most of that money?
            The Kremlin.
            If you answered correctly, you win a Kewpie doll.

            Ukraine was not ignoring opposing arguments of Donbas.
            Fully aware actually.
            Was having discussions with Party of Regions members on the way forward.

            Bunch of Kremlin proxies saw how the light of day was shining.
            They killed people, broke into government buildings, stole automatic weapons, killed more people, then got more Muscovites to come into Ukraine and lead the rebellion, like Guberev and Girkin.

            To me, it was Donbas separatists that were unwilling to hear the other side and talk, their first mission was to take up arms and kill.

            And your telling me and Ukrainians we did not hear their story and it is worth listening to and giving them Amnesty?
            BS!@
            They ignored and refused to discuss with Kyiv.
            All because vova ordered yanukothief to settle it and not to sign the EU agreement before the Olympics were over or he would come in and settle it his own way.
            Spetsnaz came in (to make sure yanukothief fufilled vova’s orders), directed the Berkut on the gameplan and yanukotheif ordered the murders and over 1000 injuries by gunfire at Maidan.

            Nothing of the ‘other side’ is worth listening to.
            It was a criminal operation ordered by vova, that continued to escalate and now over 8000 Ukrainians are dead (and probably about 5000 Russians) due to a terror campaign waged by the Kremlin.
            You have seen the videos of the marches in Donetsk in favor of unity and how peaceful they were.

            End of story.
            If you expect me to listen to a crucified child story AGAIN.
            You know, that story that flooded Kremlin sponsored mass media for Russian citizens, and then listen to more fairy tales of the other side, you have me confused with someone else.

            Fare thee well

          • boggled

            Aric, you may delete (or edit) my comment in moderation if you feel it is inappropriate for this discussion.
            You know how I feel and I think everyone does.

            Only thing I would say to you stranger is you have a warped sense of humor and sense of history if you believe that in Kyiv no one was willing to listen to the representatives of Donbas and that the people of Donbas were equally willing to listen to those of unity and a stronger partnership with Europe.
            And there was only one side told.

            The various comment boards of the world were all full of Russians with names like Becky extolling about SaveTheDonbas twitter campaign.
            The West could not help but read about it with the Kremlin propaganda paid comment generators and bots.
            AS well as all the Kremlin sponsored media lies they told for the Kremlin in its PR campaign to attempt to sell to the world that Kyiv and Maidan movements (ALL OVER UKRAINE) was ALL fassist members of Pravy Sektor and Svoboda.
            Ignore the other side of the story, indeed!

            Fare thee well

          • stranger

            boggled, let it to be a draw (game) Because I don’t disagree on everything you are saying, but in other statements you must be kidding. I really don’t feel comfortable to argue. Thank you for the nuke smugglers info, I didn’t know, though I don’t see any connection.

          • boggled

            stranger,
            We can call it a draw, and I thank you for giving an argument against me in a less emotional way and trying to maintain honesty throughout.
            Debated or discussing with you is more pleasant then some discussions I have had with others that refuse to acknowledge some accepted facts.
            To them, they still live on a flat earth.

            Your debate also made me look deeper into some issues I had not fully educated myself on.
            I learned some new items and hope you and others did as well.
            Thank you.

            AS to the relevance of the nuke issue.
            It is just you portrayed it as lying, when in fact it could have been some sugar packed around a small fork from Chernobyl that set off a Geiger counter.
            And the smugglers pretended it to be actual atomic material for sale that could be used for a bomb.
            Ukraine may not have been lying that they initially said they caught smugglers with atomic material.
            It just was not the radioactive material needed for a dirty bomb.
            The reporters never made a followup report about what the testing of the item had resulted in.
            Although there are people that are keeping track of all those numbers.
            That is all, so the media reporting a interception of smugglers in a car carrying nuclear material, may be true.
            With further investigation it can be determined the quality of that material.
            That is all.
            And it may have gotten wide spread attention, as you saw with those articles there are many incidents that do not get reported in the press but other ‘watchdog’ groups are keeping track.

            Fare thee well

        • Andrea

          You answered to my comment with NOTHING about my comment… read it again if you need…
          Via googletranslate i was able to read that he clearly states that it should have been impossible to SBU to record that call and produce it so early.
          My consideration is: if SBU was too fast what MoD was? Hadn’t they spammed out stupid stories the day after? Then they can do it cause in russia they r faster?

          Reply
          • stranger

            Andrea,
            Sorry, I thought you have read the whole article. Google translate is not perfect.
            Your are right he indeed said that the record appeared just 3 hours after the crash, but more importantly is in just the next paragraph:
            “According to these conversations, he was allegedly shot down “Cossacks”, which stood at Chernuhinskom checkpoint. A Now let’s look, which is Chernukhin from the zone defined by the Security Council of the Netherlands as a zone of fire at “Boeing”:”
            There was also a frequency analysis of this record proved it to be a cut compilation.
            I saw the MoD press-conference, but gave blunt hints on Su25, and Ukr Buks at the same time, etc. nevertheless avoiding clear conclusions.

    • boggled

      Understood stranger and thank you for sharing.
      It is not your opinion, but his.
      AS far as events in Ukraine, OSCE and HRW and other international groups are collecting evidence for their own investigations.
      They do speak out against DNR and have noted coordinated attacks by DNR and Russians soldiers on civilians inside Ukraine.
      They do not speak out very loudly right now because if they do, DNR and LNR kick them out, and them being there is the only way for the world, impartially, to know what is going on.
      So until the ‘conflict’ settles down and the investigations can be fully finished will there be a lot of the truths for the history books.

      There are liars or distortion of truth on both sides, but what evidence has shown so far, there is going to be a lot of UN Tribunals for crimes in Donetsk and that area.

      Ukraine has invited and welcome these investigations (even if they are found guilty), the separatists and the Kremlin have forbid it, and that says a lot.

      Fare thee well

      Reply
  7. Lenomdeplume

    Its easy to determine when the truth has been revealed. (In this case, that the SAM was fired from the Soviet (oops, I mean Russian) held territory.) How, you might ask? Because all of the St Petersburg Pu-trolls begin spamming the announcement with irrelevant posts. Reminds me of the crazy propaganda from Putler when the “little green men” invaded Crimea.

    Face it, Pu-trolls, once again you are defeated by facts.

    Reply
    • John Zenwirt

      Agreed….we are infested by fake “westerners”…..whose sole goal is to produce a given number of Vova-love posts…then the FSB will pay 700-800USD/month…we have seen pictures of the building where this anti-west operation goes on…

      Reply
      • theresa

        Congratulations! The mindless bigoted, hate filled drivel that you and others have managed to infest this site with, has driven serious contributors away. The fact that the Bellingcat moderators have allowed this utter nonsense does not reflect well on them . I am now de subscribing from this site in the interests of spiritual hygiene

        Reply
        • Rick

          Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. This site is exceptional. It is just Haunted by Russian trolls like you who try without success to debunk what is happening here. Have a good day

          Reply
        • John Zenwirt

          “…has driven serious contributors away..”

          No Vova-love posts are ever serious…

          Reply

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