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Possible new sighting of MH17 Buk convoy on July 17th 2014 in Ukraine

May 12, 2016

By Bellingcat Investigation Team

Translations: Русский

On May 3rd 2016, a new video of what appears to be the July 17th 2014 Buk convoy was uploaded to YouTube, and was on May 11th discovered by Twitter users @amishjihadi and @loondale. In the video, there are several details visible which seem to indicate this is the same Buk TELAR that has been recorded moving towards the suspected Buk missile launch site, thus associating it with the downing of MH17.

At this time, it’s not known what the origin of this video is and why it was uploaded only now, but the video seems to be dashcam footage, which based on the watermark visible has been cropped with a video editing program called CropiPic.

In the video at 0:47, the same white truck from earlier Buk transport videos can be seen. The truck has the Buk TELAR loaded on the back, and there appear to be four missiles mounted, with a camouflage netting covering them.

Buk_4_missiles

At 0:48, the side of the unit can be seen, which shows the same white marks that have been seen on the previous close-up pictures of the TELAR.

Comparison of features of Buk 332 in Makiivka (top left), Alexeyevka (top right),and Donetsk (bottom)

Comparison of features of Buk 332 in Makiivka (top left), Alexeyevka (top right), and Donetsk (bottom)

An interesting detail that provides further validity to the link to the previous videos are the escort vehicles that can be seen before and after the truck. Bellingcat has previously reported about the vehicles, and we can direct matches: there is a Toyota RAV4 in front of the truck, with a UAZ-469AZ and VW Transporter following it.

Comparison of videos from July 15 (top) and July 17 (bottom) in eastern Ukraine

Comparison of videos from July 15 (top) and July 17 (bottom) in eastern Ukraine

The description in the video claims the location to be Makiivka, east of Donetsk. There are details visible in the video which make geolocation of this video possible. The clearest landmarks are the gas station visible from 0:50 onwards, and the traffic circle towards the end of the video. The Parallel (Параллель) chain signs are clearly visible. In Makiivka, through Google Maps we can find one location which is located near a traffic circle, giving a good reference point for further validation.

Google Map screenshot of Makiivka

Google Maps screenshot of Makiivka

View from video, in which the fuel station, roundabout, and lines of trees are all visible

View from video, in which the fuel station, roundabout, and lines of trees are all visible

More detailed geolocations have been completed by other open source researchers, including Anton Pavlushko and @DajeyPetros (also known as Putin@War/Ukraine@War). The geolocations reveal that the convoy is headed eastward in southern Makiivka.

Local map of the convoy's location and direction eastward, and larger route in eastern Ukraine (bottom)

Local map of the convoy’s location and direction eastward, and larger route in eastern Ukraine (bottom)

Additionally, as found by InformNapalm’s Anton Pavlushko, the roundabout and billboard visible at the end of the video matches that of the roundabout just west of Kapitalnaya Park.

makiivka_roundabout_vid
Webpage advertising the billboard at roundabout

Webpage advertising the billboard at roundabout

The time of the video can be confirmed to be in mid-July 2014 as well. As pointed out by Twitter user @WowihaY, the fuel prices in the video match that of a page archived on July 18, 2014 on the webpage of the fuel station in the video.

gas-prices-top-row-visible5dae537533f813448c852cb9ee726c24

 

Fuel prices, archived on July 18, 2014 on fuel station's website

Fuel prices, archived on July 18, 2014 on fuel station’s website

The visible shadows indicate that the video was taken in the late morning, which is in line with the anticipated time frame of the transport. The exact time of the video has yet to be determined.

The importance of this sighting is that it provides further insight to the actual route taken by the Buk convoy. A railway bridge on the H21 road at 48.033594 37.950988 makes the direct route through Makiivka difficult due to the height of the Buk transport, so it seems the convoy diverted slightly from the main road in Makiivka to work around this problem via a southern route through Avtotransportna St. This is the same route taken by a heavy transport convoy on July 15th, where the same escort vehicles were present.

In summary, the new video provides interesting new details about the July 17th 2014 Buk convoy composition and route. Further investigation and validation into the sighting and its implications is warranted.

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247 Comments

  1. Arthur

    Thing is you only see it go past one tree and there are no branches from that tree hanging over the road, so whats it meant to hit?

    Reply
    • oui oui

      second 44 the truck pass under this tree
      second 52 , you have the last white car under these branches , at twice the height of the car
      8 seconds after the truck , nothing move , not even a leave on the road
      I think this video is a trap
      to discredit what is build on the others

      Reply
      • Rick

        So Oui Oui.. The most intelligent thing you can come up with is that the tree the BUK Telar Surface to Air Missile Launcher passed under did moved enough? Wow such an amazing observation.. You believe that the BUK Telar Surface to Air Missile Launcher was airbrushed in.. They did an amazing job… The three escort vehicles with there lights flashing were all fake too?.. You are such a Russian Troll.. Please find atleast one reasonable idea to dismiss this video.. Tree not moving doesn’t quite cut it.

        Reply
  2. Greg Rabinovich

    Shadows cast by the “MH17 Buk” indicate that it is fleeing a crime scene eastward toward Russia. So, why does it still has all four missiles mounted?
    Which of the following do you think is more likely:

    1) the Buk is a custom five-missile edition designed to covertly shoot down commercial airliners
    2) the Buk shot down MH17 with a spare missile mounted on TELAR’s side to keep it away from prying bellingcat’s eyes
    3) on direct orders from Pujtin, the Buk’s crew replaced a missing missile with an inflatable one
    4) bellingcat is peddling bull, again.

    Reply
    • Arthur

      Wrong day Greg. This was not taken on the morning of the 18th when it was supposedly filmed fleeing but on the morning of the seventeeth when it was travelling west.

      This is basic, basic stuff so is it that

      A) you can’t read?
      B) comprehend basic facts?
      C) you are completely full of shit?

      Reply
      • Mx

        Take it easy ) I already said that this Greg is the winner of annual nation-wide competition held in Russia.They in Russia need to find most talented clown.After that this clown is promoted to become the president of russia

        But it seems you made a mistake.The buk on the video is travelling east not west

        Reply
        • stranger

          ‘Cmon, Greg has been fooling around from the very befinning. He has absolutely nothing to do with Russian side or whatever.
          He is presumably working for Bellingcat to create an exhagerated conspiracy background by contrast to which bellingcat looks like super experts. So that they can pack later all who disagree to the same bunch and label them all together.
          Alternatively possibly Greg is working for a gang of Ukrainian trolls who want to show a caricature of a Russian troll as good as they are able to understand that, and create themselves an easy to debunk opponent by themselves.
          And you guys are so easily bought by this or playing with him in the same team.

          Reply
          • John Zenwirt

            That’s really awful paranoia, stranger. I advise not to cling to a world of “conspiracies;” b/c, you’re OK by me, and I worry you might be in a bad place mentally 🙂

          • stranger

            John, I’m so touched you are concerned about my mental state, please don’t worry : )

            You see, I’ve got custom to think people around are rather rational. If I see somebody is telling something apparently unlogical or strictly categorical w/o any visible reason, I’m likely to assume they are fooling us for whatever their own reason, rather than they are sincerely mistaken.

            I believe that is a good test, don’t you agree?

            PS and do you remember what you had been writing ? : )

          • Sammy

            Wow stranger, ( I don’t think this is the real stranger, but the 3rd shift using his account )

            Greg is working for Bellingcat or Ukrainian trolls?

            That is typical Russian false flag (disinformation) tactics.

            Greg is a ineffective troll, planted by Bellingcat or Ukraine.

            Wow

            That’s the Russian way of playing games.

            Greg is a distraction, that stranger disavows?

            The propaganda machine just hit 11.

          • stranger

            OMG, another Bellingcat paid troll trying to warm up the commenters. And Bellingcat doesn’t deny, does it? : )

      • Greg Rabinovich

        Arthur, if you’d read the bellingcat article before dumping a load of verbal diarrhea on this forum, you might have noticed the following passage:

        “More detailed geolocations have been completed by other open source researchers, including Anton Pavlushko and @DajeyPetros (also known as Putin@War/Ukraine@War). The geolocations reveal that the convoy is headed EASTWARD in southern Makiivka.”

        Reply
        • Arthur

          Oh greg, you’ll see above i said i made a mistake on that to mx so you can cry me a river…

          Oh and as for talking utter s**t Last night on here you were banging on about there being no yellow sign on the side of the truck (even though its as plain as the D on your hat) and today you’re spouting s**t about shadows and 5 missiles….so my little trollski you know exactly what you can do with that.

          Once again, the thing you seem not to notice is the big old missile launcher sitting slap bang in the middle of rebel held territory. Now if you can rev that little gerbil in your head for one more run around the wheel you might just be able to join the dots up that illustrates that the russians/rebels had a BUK and were the only ones downing planes in the east of the Ukraine and here it is caught on film, just to help you out, its the big green thing on the back of the truck, above that yellow sign.

          Reply
          • stranger

            Arthur, please don’t respond to this cheap provocation, otherwise people would think you are playing the same game. And you are not, are you?

        • denis cashcov

          Yes, you are right Greg. The truck is heading in the wrong direction.
          If only the Americans would stop hiding their satellite imagery, we could know the truth. Until then we have at best a truck moving the wrong way

          Reply
          • Sammy

            Funny you should say that about satellite imagery.

            Google Earth now prove the NATO images of Russia firing over the border into Ukraine.

            Putin fail, troll farm fail

      • peremen

        “morning of the 18th when it was supposedly filmed fleeing but on the morning of the seventeeth when it was travelling west.”

        And how can you tell this ?

        Reply
    • Mx

      What are those “Shadows” you are talking about? What do you mean?
      As for me, I don’t see any “Shadows”. May be you mean shadows on the road?
      I don’t see them either.Also you mentioned some “MH17 Buk”.What is it?
      Is it the newest Mercedes-Benz S-Klasse? or what? Please explain

      Reply
  3. Marcel

    Anybody noticed the windscreen whiper and the ventilation in this video are very similar to the Paris Match photos?

    Reply
    • boggled

      Many did assume PM was image from a dash cam video
      Though to me, the vents look much smaller in this new video

      If you turn speed of video down to 0.25 and go to ~ 37 seconds and watch at ~ 38 seconds when goes under a tree, the vents are smaller and different shape.

      Also the distance between the holes in windshield wiper look shorter distance in PM image (~ 2 cm) and longer in new video (~4-5 cm)

      Camera is in different position on dash so it MIGHT account for differences and poster may be same source of both sets of images.
      But I tend to think it is different.

      Quality of images ( pixel definition and focus) is roughly the same, except for a much dirtier windshield in PM image.

      Similar? yes
      The same? Not in my opinion
      But I am open to a more thorough look at it.
      And will concede to other’s judgement.

      Fare thee well

      Reply
        • boggled

          I still agree the shape of the windshield wiper arm and connector piece is eerily similar.
          You can see them most defined at the end of the video at the roundabout.

          The difference in closeness to windshield may account for measurement differences I pointed out.
          Vents are due to reflection measurements
          There are 2 windshield wipers on most cars.
          You may be still correct.

          Also the tracks of the tanks from July 15 you mentioned may be blurred as much of the road is blurry in this new video if you watch the bottom of the windshield.

          You may be right, It may be someone was tailing the BUK

          And that makes one wonder what else was captured in surveillance and what time did they have to inform or relay that information.

          Was it SBU informant?
          How much access to communications did they have behind enemy lines?
          Could they only give secure communications after MH17 was destroyed?

          Was it a concerned Donetsk citizen (who knew what a BUK was and how dangerous and new it was?) ….
          …..doing the private investigative work by themselves that did not have direct contact with SBU until after MH17 was destroyed?
          i.e. once they crossed a checkpoint into ‘safe’ zone to send it out.

          2nd one is more likely, IMHO.
          But no doubts
          Both factions NAF and Ukraine militias had covert operatives that crossed checkpoints.

          Something I am sure investigators are curious about.
          We may not find out for sure until the trial/Tribunal.

          It does make you wonder.

          Good catch on similarities Marcel, you do have a good eye for details.

          I am 50/50 on decision about it.
          Until I can personally test it and compare IRL.

          Fare thee well

          Reply
        • Mx

          Guys,what are you talking about? ) You really blow my mind )
          You compare windscreen whipers in this video and on PM photo. How did you manage to see and discern windscreen whipers on PM photo if it’s taken from behind the cabin?. As for me I don’t see any whipers on PM photo

          Reply
    • Steve

      To be honest i think its the same truck. But i would also suggest what is of far greater importance is the load its carrying.

      Other thing to do is to check the manufacturer, do volvo make two trucks that similar? Truck owner was traced said he only had one truck? Only one like it in the whole of the area.

      Plus the angle of the pm shot and this are very difficult to compare i would say.

      Reply
  4. Mr.Bushkin

    Nice finding, but it’s an addition to what already has been filmed two years ago.

    Still, you have to imagine a connection among the Buk 332/3×2 filmed in Russia, the Buk filmed with four and later with three missiles in Eastern Ukraine and a hypothetical Buk responsible for downing of MH17.

    Whether it’s all the same vehicle or not depends on whom claims his point of view.

    Reply
    • stranger

      Yes, that is the most important question and the weakest chain of the proposed theory.
      Ok, let’s assume we have spotted a Buk around Sneznoe.
      1. Is it the same Buk as seen at RF territory? BC gives several features to prove it is. The question is how reliable those features and images themselves are?
      2. Is it the same Buk which downed MH17? There are no any evidences so far as far as I know.
      Moreover if somebody knew rebels have a buk in this region, and wanted to frame rebels (absolutely hypothetically) that would be a perfect opportunity to shot a plane in the vicinity from another place. Very unlikely, I think, but…

      Reply
      • Steve

        In that situation you simply look at who has proven to have lied and more over which side of the conflict had need for the weapon in question and moreover used it previously (no way a manpad brought down an an26)

        That is simple logic.

        Re your second point, i agree with you, very very unlikely. Whats more russian and nato satellites would in all likelihood see the shot, there would be physical evidence and eye witness accounts. So far there is only almaz and the super computer device..

        Reply
        • stranger

          “In that situation you simply look at who has proven to have lied” all those events have been accompanied with the tremendous volume of lie and misinformation from ALL sides…

          Reply
          • Steve

            Well, only one side has lied about having a BUK. Only one side claimed responsibility for downing that plane and only one side broadcast it on russian news. Furthermore only one side has been blocking any efforts to have an international tribunal established to try those found culpable and doing their best to establish as many false narratives as possible. Its quite pathetic really.

          • stranger

            You might be only one-side-informed. That is always the problem. Though I don’t justify either side.
            Besides the international tribunal there must be many opportunities for a single country or an international court, that should not obligatory be agreed via UN. Probably.
            Provided that will ever come to the court. The polonium case as you know has never been finished, no any court heard it. Do you mean Russian would not extradite the suspects if they will be hiding in Russia? Maybe.

          • Arthur

            The public inquiry into the polonium case was finished and it’s findings illustrate, which are available to be read should you be bothered, that Russia is in effect a mafia state which sponsors murder of its political leaders opponents as it sees fit.

            No trial of the two murderers that the Russian state is harbouring will start due to it being, apparently, unconstitutional to extradite them.

            No court case of the Russian soldiers, their commanding officers, or their superiors will take place either. Russia will just continue to deny involvement in the Ukraine, the deaths of its soldiers on foreign soil and the murder of 298 on board MH17. Anyone who tries to bring it to light will, invariably, meet the same fate as Litvinenko and Nemtsov.

          • stranger

            Litvinenko was a political leader opponent? Ok. It is clearer now. Thank you for showing your position.

          • Arthur

            No, political leaders opponent.

            An opponent of your political leaders.

            A personal vendetta between Putin and Litvinenko which lead to the poisoning of one by, in all probability, the other.

          • stranger

            A personal vendetta was probably between Berezovskiy and Putin. Litvinenko was only his small fry, and also a FSB defector. The name of Litvinenko is still exploited particularly by Khodorkovskiy fund when they claimed as if Litvinenko allergedly left some notarized revelations only in written in Israel which they made public only now. That was a dirty story.

          • Arthur

            But apparently your president being implicated in the murder of a dissident is not a story.

          • stranger

            You can find the story of Litvinenko if you wish, that is a very special case, he was not merely a dissident, his story is tightly related to Berezovskiy.
            As for Nemtsov I don’t believe his murder was ordered by Putin. Putin is not an idiot, while Nemtsov was the most known and charismatic but the less dangerous in the current situation.

          • Arthur

            So Nemtsov, a man under constant state surveillance is killed by a chechnyan acting under some strange sense of loyalty to Putin? You really think that happens without complicity by the security services?

            As to Putins involvement or not, you’ll never know, there wont be anything like a decent investigation and the judiciary in Russia is merely a means by which the state can pressure and or imprison those whom the state feels doesnt serve their interest.

            The Russian government had no such sway over the public enquiry in the UK and it illustrated Russian state complicity in the murder of Litvinenko. In any other country in the world a situation like that would provoke a scandal and likely charges to any number of people, not least the murderers.

            You lot just give them medals.

          • stranger

            Guys, can you speak in Human language, because you sound like Komsomoltsy (a young supporters of Lenin communist party) in deep USSR times. The topics are different, but intonations and narratives are exactly the same.
            Sorry for making it personal. I can try to answer seriously, but that would be the same dancing around as with CLF68

          • stranger

            “UK and it illustrated Russian state complicity in the murder of Litvinenko” could you please be more specific, how exactly the public investigation of a retired UK high court judge has proved the complicity of the Russian state in the murder if Litvinenko?

            And why do you think that Russian special services are so stupid to kill an opposition politician just next to Kremlin to create a perfect picture for the international journalists, and create a lot of troubles for their boss in how the world perceives Russia?

          • Sammy

            Steve, great post.

            Russia has proven to lie. NATO is trying to let Putin save face.

            The satellite photos that NATO released in 2014 about Russia firing cross border into Ukraine has now been corroborated by Google Earth

            When one man speaks and is proven a liar, the second man is still trying to let the first man save face.

            One day stranger will realize that Russia and Russians are guilty of this crime..

            The Ukrainians know they are innocent

            The brotherhood is going to collapse because propagandists like stranger.

      • boggled

        Well stranger.
        One BUK in all 2014 located in Snizhne
        Coincidentally on the same day the truck with a BUK on the back of it gets photographed both with 3 missiles and 4 missiles.
        All coincidentally on the same day that MH17 was destroyed taking 300 innocent lives off the Earth.

        I know…
        .. Seps had two BUKs.
        One they were storing in Donbas (with 3 missiles on it)
        ….and One they drove in from Some other place in Donbass to have some body and engine work done.

        They dropped of one BUK early the 17th and reloaded the other and took it back to Luhansk (freshly painted and waxed) with 3 missiles and cargo netting that just happens to blow most the way off.
        Can’t get good help nowadays to lash down cargo netting.

        Or maybe this…

        …They loaded a BUK on a trailer, FULLY LOADED mind you, and drove it to Donetsk to have some repair work and a touch up paint job on one missile.
        ..They dropped off the one missile, and drove the BUK and Volvo and Trailer and 3 other missiles back (with bad cargo net strapped down…no rush job that) to Luhansk to hide in a garage, until someone called them to go pick up the ONE missile they left in Donetsk.

        And MH17 just happens to get hit that same day with a BUK missile.

        Nope, no evidence at all this is the same BUK, riggghhhttt.

        Just one of those once in a lifetime coincidences that happened on the July 17 2014?

        Unfortunately Seps would not man up to anything of having a BUK and deny having one to this day.

        (very sarcastically) No, you are right there is no evidence at all this BUK is the one that murdered 300 people returning home or going on vacation.

        Fare thee well

        Reply
        • stranger

          This video is not accurately dated. Why do you think it was on 17th? Stratfor claimed so I think by some satellite image, but not this article. If we take a look at the archived version of the gas station page they used to date the video, we can find the same gas prices captured on 11th of July. Having all those dates covered in webarchive just by coincidence looks very strange by itself, but if we assume it is all correct, the video can as well be dated by any day between 11 and 18.
          We know from the Dutch report, there were two Su24 shot on the prior day 16th of July at the altitudes unreachable by man held SAMs at 6-8km. ATO said it was done by a Russian plane, although there were no any evidences of the Russian plane other than their plain words.
          If we assume the separatists buk was related to at least one of those Su24 on 16th of July, that may explain the missing missile.
          The fact ATO speaker announced the presence of a Russian plane may explain why Ukrainian buks could have been on a combat duty the next day, and hypothetically might have occasionally, i’m not saying deliberately, shoot MH17.
          No, isn’t that a possible scenario?

          Reply
          • boggled

            stranger
            Altitudes were less than that on the prior shoot downs, you should recheck your numbers.
            I think highest was 6200 m after investigation.
            And some of the newer RF MANPADS can reach that.

            There may be further sat images I imagine coming.
            Поживём — увидим.

            This BUK convoy was same seen in other videos.
            And matches up with many of the released captured communications of July 17 2014.

            occasionally – word you should use is – accidentally

            over ten sighting of BUK on July 17th and none prior?

            Ukraine BUKs were on active duty because vova threatened invasion and marching into Kyiv.

            ALL BUK videos with Volvo truck and trailer are from July 17 2014

            strafor’s image confirms it.

            Kremlin and/or NAF(Seps, DNI, DNR, novarossiya, whatever you want to call them) escalated risk to civilian aircraft that flew over Donetsk at least 100 times a day without announcing to UA that BUK use is one the table by NAF so UA could close air space.
            Which UA would have done.

            I am glad you admit to yourself that Seps had a BUK.
            Many of them still deny this.

            Probability this is a video from another day is next to 0.05%

            Enjoy the next article about it on BC
            I know you and I both agree their OSINT is par excellence.
            And articles are clear and concise.
            Плохо́му нача́лу — плохо́й коне́ц.
            Crimea IS Ukraine

            Fare thee well

          • stranger

            In the end of June Russian state TV announced that separatists are going to use Buk allegedly captured at one of Ukrainian bases. Ukraine confirmed that the captured base A-1402 had a buk, but claimed it was out of order while all others had been relocated before. On the very date of the catastrophe Ukrainian mass media stated that the ATO speaker confirmed they knew the separatists had a Buk as it was spotted in a convoy under Lugansk.
            http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/07/17/7032182/
            On the prior dates at least 3 military planes were downed at high altitudes unreachable to MANPADS. That was the area where military aviation was extensively used. There are witnesses shown in the latest BBC documentary of using military aviation even on the day of the catastrophe, and the bombed apartment building on a prior date, denied by official Ukraine.
            That was enough information to completely close the sky for commercial flights in the war zone which was never done. That also should be considered.

          • stranger

            pls take a look, you were probably not too wrong claiming rebels had two buks, the same was told by Ukrainian ambassador on the very next day after the crash at the emergency UN meeting:
            “Ambassador Yuriy Sergeyev told an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council on Friday that communications and intercepts, photos and videos indicate that the rebels have at least two SA-11 missile systems.”
            http://wane.com/2014/07/18/ukraine-airliner-downing-made-possible-by-russia/
            So Ukraine knew that in advance, why didn’t they close the sky?

          • stranger

            “Crimea IS Ukraine” that’s should be up to Crimeans, not us to decide

          • boggled

            Stranger
            Yes, prior to MH17, their initial investigations thought it may be ~8km that a plane was taken out.
            Further investigation provided that it was closer to ~6km.
            Civilian Aviation at 10km was safe with the evidence they had.

            See pg 185 of DSB report

            re: blaming UA for not closing airspace
            I see you are still at the point of blaming a wife for being killed because she tries to leave and abusive relationship…
            Instead of blaming the criminal abusive husband who repeatedly beat her and murdered her while she was trying to leave.

            EVEN if it was 8km and a Pantsir or Russian fighter jet or S300 that shot it down, their intelligence told them that the missile was launched from INSIDE RUSSIA.
            Changing civilian flight level or closing airspace could not deal with acts of war of Russia shooting across the border.

            Should Turkish airspace be closed because Assad uses AAM to hit enemy aircraft?
            Should Syrian Airspace be closed because Turkey shot down a Russian military jet?
            IMHO, the whole region including Russia should then be declared closed by ICAO, after ICAO investigation.

            And in light of that, I think ICAO should close all international flights to and from Russia currently and should remain that way until Russia ends its belligerence.
            Especially with the many repeated violations of Russian military jets flying in INTERNATIONAL civilian flight paths with transponders turned off.

            Official UA statement of Snizhne apartment bombings said UNKNOWN aircraft dropped a bomb.
            Further it was admitted it was UA aircraft that did it as it was attacking a rebel base a short distance away (600 m)
            The bomb fell 0.25-0.5 seconds to early and missed its actual target.

            BUKs were mentioned and confirmed after reports were flooding into Kyiv about what was seen, they had to find out if it was true and credible.
            You do not close a school just because of a bomb threat.
            You get investigate, then if credible, then you close.

            UA I do not believe had enough time to act after they believed it was a credible and verifiable escalation by Russian proxy forces.

            Yuriy Sergeyev stated this on July 18 after they had analyzed much of the info.
            They had not analyzed it all though.
            They did not know in advance as you attempt to assert, I believe.

            I am sure ICAO and DSB looked into this as to what time July 17th 2014 there was credible evidence that was available that warranted closing airspace.

            Like Iraq you act on the best intelligence you get, sometimes it is impossible to have verifiable intelligence of inside an operation like NAF or Daesh, or Assad or Saddam’s military.
            Sometimes you cannot get that intelligence until it is smuggled out through various Sep held checkpoints.
            There was no actionable intelligence until AFTER MH17 was destroyed.

            No one thought a bunch of idiots would fire at a civilian flight at a (safe) flight level, squawking all kinds of identification codes that would identify them as civilian, that was only used by civilian flights.

            Yes, it should have been, and should be, up to Crimeans.
            Unfortunately Russian soldiers imposed martial law on the peninsula, replaced Parliament with RF useful idiots, then instituted a fraudulent referendum full of stuffed ballot boxes and no credible election monitors.

            Today it should be today as well, RF soldiers and Berkut and Spetsnaz should return to their base
            Opposition voices (and Russian voices) should be allowed to be heard for a month in media and UN peacekeeping forces be present on Crimea for a official referendum to observe and count the votes and keep the peace and deliver humanitarian aid and medical treatment in that time frame.
            1- ~2 months

            Do you think Kremlin would be okay with that?

            Fare thee well

          • stranger

            There had been a lot of rumors and buzz about the Buk before the crash. Russian central TV even announced that separatists are going to use a Buk in the end of June.
            http://www.rbc.ru/society/21/07/2014/56be2e5d9a7947299f72ccd0
            Even if the official Ukraine didn’t have a reliable prove, it should have made any precautions.
            And regarding ‘Unknown’ plane which bombed Lugansk – that is not serious, that is the same excuse as the rebels allegedly fired on own cities in order to discredit Ukrainian army.

          • boggled

            stranger
            BUK in June 29 was a broken piece of machinery with no missiles.
            It would have taken a supply of missiles, repair equipment from Russia, repair technicians from Russia, money from Russia, and about 6 months of fabrication, engine repair, and drive train repair to get it operational.

            It would have been easier to supply a Russian BUK from Kursk, which happened (regardless of your denial).
            Leaders of NAF went to Russia to beg for weapons and troops from putin the week before MH17 was destroyed, they got their wishes fulfilled.

            Seps have been firing on their own supporters and and also neutrals in cities(villages) they want to occupy.
            False flag op of bomb city then send in DNR reps to claim we will protect you from UA who bombed you if you gives us money and key to your city.

            You forget the 3 guys driving around Donetsk that were ‘caught’ and prosecuted by DNR? Caught all because international media talked about it first and exposed it.

            You forget about Mariupol?
            http://fijione.tv/ukraine-to-ask-hague-to-investigate-crimes-against-humanity/

            Investigation is on going, I think, but evidence is there for russian or russian proxy responsibility.
            BC has a few investigations they did of that and the truck that drove around shelling bus stops.

            I doubt you will read rferl, but I think it is worth a read and for you to consider.
            Especially since it has to do with percentages of fighters and the topic of attacking civilians as well as NAF’s own forces to blame UA militias or military.

            http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-i-was-a-separatist-fighter/25455466.html

            Fare thee well

          • stranger

            Look, the report you sent titled ”Russian war crimes in Eastern Ukraine in 2014″ p.18 contains the list of all separatists chiefs. Where is at least one Russian citizen there except withdrawn Strelkov? All of them are locals. The professor who you said is paid by Kremlin, he is Ukrainian, most of the critics of official Ukraine are from Donbas. That is much more complicated than propaganda is trying to tell us.

          • Sammy

            Stranger

            “Crimea IS Ukraine” that’s should be up to Crimeans, not us to decide

            Well it’s hard to decide honestly when you are prevented from voting or there are armed guards at the booth.

            I guess you Russians are ok with those type of elections?

      • Arthur

        You can read the judgement for yourself stranger. It wasnt the judge that proved it by the way it was the London metropolitan police who managed to prove that litvinenko was murdered using radioactive material and then managed to trace that radioactive material back to russia via traces of it being found on a plane used by the two accused.

        As to what a retired high court judge might know, i’d wager it is a great deal more than you or I combined stranger

        https://www.litvinenkoinquiry.org/files/Litvinenko-Inquiry-Report-web-version.pdf

        Reply
  5. Andrea

    Hello guys … i’m just wondering what happened to RANDY … maybe they fired him … maybe he’s Greg … maybe was that crazy dutch professor with MH17/AIDS theories…

    Come back please … MISSING YOU 🙂

    Reply
    • boggled

      Missing Randy XD
      Yeah he was a fun one
      A fun one with all kinds of off the wall ideas.

      Nice to see you again as well 😉
      Keep up the good work!

      Fare thee well

      Reply
    • John Zenwirt

      Bellingcat is proliferating. More and more western publications with any Defense issue is probably aware of Bellingcat, in the above link they are the basis for a whole StratFor. article…

      Reply
  6. stranger

    Did anybody researched the origin of the video, who uploaded it first time, who copied and distributed, who found, how much days passed since it appeared for the first time and then was ‘occasionally’ found by a random witness?
    Did anybody try to contact the first original uploader?
    I remember when BC researched the allergedly Russian troll factory originated video showing people pretending to be Azov battalion, they have discovered a full chain of trolls, who uploaded first, who distributed, etc.
    And here there are no any details according to the origin other than 2 guys who ‘occasionally’ found it just somewhere on the Internet. It reminds a bad detective.
    That might helped to find out the authenticity of the video, if it was not completely drawn as a Hollywood movie for example or some key details modified.

    Reply
    • Mx

      I wonder if there’s a technical possibility to ban such russian scumbags like this stranger on this site.?

      Reply
      • stranger

        Mx, in the Russian version of the site I asked you to show just a little bit of good breeding and manners. Because people would transfer the impression about yourself to all your country. If you have something material to tell, please do.

        Reply
      • stranger

        Mx, and just from the very practical prospective, if you demonstrate your negative emotions and rage you are immediately becoming a very easy target to attack. Ask me how I do know. So just an indifferent face of Shtirlitz and calm logical arguments and you would be invincible. 🙂 kidding of course…

        Reply
    • Steve

      Stranger, if you can illustrate its fake or manipulated, please do so. Until some one illustrates this i will believe what it apparently shows. A BUK in eastern ukraine being used by the rebels on or around the day that MH17 was shot down from rebel held territory by a BUK.

      Reply
      • stranger

        Steven, I don’t claim it is a fake, at least I have no evidences to claim, I’m just believe it is important to find out the original uploader, try to contact maybe, and how he/she is related to the people who occasionally found that video. That is what BC did for Azov video before.

        Reply
        • Andrea

          Probably the guy leaked this stuff is scared to death thinking what he will face if his/her name comes out…i bet down in DNR they won’t treat him well (assuming he probably lives and have relatives down there…)

          Reply
          • stranger

            Probably, that just seems strange the video appeared after two years and was just occasionally found by some random user. That seems might be like a kind of information injection. Also bc did such origin and distribution analysis for Azov video, why not here….

          • Mx

            That’s right. Noy very good treatment is the best he could get. I think the consequences could have been much worse for him.He is the witness.
            We shouldn’t forget that those who were inside this BUK take the least responsibility.Because they were ordered to shoot down an airplane.But those who sent them there and issued such an order are sure criminals.And it’s quite natural that the order to send BUK there was issued at a very high level.So if we manage to gather all evidence related to this BUK this evidence will lead us to the specific guy.The guy who takes the full responsibility.

        • Steve

          Personally i dont care who take the footage. I haveno reason to question the veracity of the pictures, its a dash cam.

          I would prefer to focus on what the footage shows, given (with respect) there has been no issue re the authenticity. What will me firnding out the man who took the photo ru

          Reply
    • Frank

      Stranger. Time after time it is noticeable your focus is on questioning the less essential things, you do not ask the most obvious and most substantial, essential questions in this matter.
      How come?

      Reply
    • boggled

      stranger – you have been following an OSINT site for a long time.
      Did you use the tools Bellingcat has shown you to do your OWN investigation and what did you find?
      Or can’t you because it is already blocked by a Kremlin imposed firewall for you?

      My investigation –
      upload date is ~ a week ago
      origin – anonymous and doesn’t matter who it is
      It links a NAF convoy with the weapon that shot down MH17
      IMHO the best evidence so far in social media linking all the evidence together.

      I hope whoever he/she is, they have a safe house well protected by the Dutch Government

      who found? Anonymous people on Twitter called AmishJihadi and Loondale.
      It was found with < 500 views the day/night, depending on your time zone that you read this article , ~ 6 hours prior to this article being written.

      They were researching a Russian troll's false claim that BUK 332 from Kursk had solid wheels.
      Turned out it was a snapshot from a video taken in Telemba.
      Not Kursk.
      He posted a snapshot and refused to link to the video it came from.
      Exposed as another Russian troll lie by concerned OSINT volunteers.

      So you and the world have a Russian Trollop to thank for it being found.

      contact uploader – Did you?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvwH0T2WCN0

      Roughly ~ 300k views today and growing
      And still a lot of in denial Russians (Kremlin Trollops and useful idiots and Ukrainiaphobes) posting BS on the comments there.

      Maybe one day you too can USE the OSINT tools Bellingcat shares with readers, and provide some helpful credible info in solving the MH17 case before the Tribunal.

      Fare thee well

      Reply
  7. Mx

    The more evidence is emerging the more aggressive and paranoic those fuc.kin russians become. Something must be done because that’s the limit

    Reply
    • John Zenwirt

      Mx: “Something must be done because that’s the limit”

      Unfortunately that statement sounds like Putin spoke this…

      I’m referring to the new, nuclear-attack threats coming from Russia..A number of top Russian officials make such statements….

      Reply
      • Mx

        So what? ) If I say “Good evening,Ladies and Gentlemen” there’s also a probability that putin may say or might have said this too )
        You mean that you take more pleasure in reading russian statements like :
        “This video was forged in Hollywood” ?? I remind all of us that here we are not disacussing UEFA Champions League match where we may so what we like.But
        It’s a sirious matter. 298 people have been killed.May be the relatives of those whoe died in this crash visit this site too,Anyway I think it’s totally unaccepatble to tolerate taunting statements from very “smart” guys.We all see that their remarks are usually irrelevant , to say the least.

        Reply
        • stranger

          Mh17 is only a fraction of all victims at Donbas, that should not be considered like the first grade people verses the second grade people…

          Reply
          • Rick

            MH17 victims where and will be the means to prove that Russian was and is fully involved in the conflict in Ukraine.. May they rest in peace.. May Putin die in shame..

          • boggled

            Amen Rick

            Stranger, do you forget Strelkov’s execution orders?
            Do you not hear on Russian sites – come join and go fight in Ukraine and kill the dirty Ukrop dill fascist?
            It did not matter to them if the civilians were Sep supporters in Donbas, they were Ukrainians and fair game for russians to treat as dogs and steal from murder and rape and torture.

            Does that sound to you like someone that values life?
            You do know that MOST the people with AK-47’s in their hands in Eastern Ukraine are Russia citizens or soldiers?
            There are very few Ukraine citizens.

            Thank GOD this is not like Grozny who vova destroyed
            No, better word would be leveled
            and
            MURDERED
            ~20,000 women , children, and elderly CIVILIANS in less than 2 months

            Could you imagine putin marching on Omsk and doing the same thing?

            I am not saying Ukraine militias and military are innocent of all civilian deaths in Donbas, but they are not the numbers Seps quote.

            Hard to hit a Sep tank or artillery unit shooting at you when it is shooting from alongside a school, apartment building, hospital, church, etc. using the building and those in it as human shields.

            There would NOT be that many deaths (civilian, Russian and Ukrainian military) if Russians GRU (strelkov & vova & yanukothief) did not organize and implement the novarossiya land bridge project trying to duplicate Crimea.

            Deaths in Donbas are on Kremlin’s and Strelkov’s bloody hands.

            Deaths of MH17 are on those same hands.

            Fare thee well

          • stranger

            Please take a look here. This is a politologiest from Canada, born in Ukraine. He is trying to use some kind of scientific approach.
            He is claiming that russian army did short term incursions to defend separatists at the times of major Ukrainian offences. I don’t known, have not seen enough evidences, but don’t completely exclude.
            But he also gives some evidences on the separatist composition:
            “A just published list of 1,572 people who joined armed formations of DNR in summer of 2014 shows that 78% of them were Ukrainian citizens, primarily from Donbas, 19% Russian citizens, 2% citizens of other countries”
            https://www.facebook.com/ivan.katchanovski/posts/1239167529446464
            I hope that should finish the discussion of who are fighting at Donbas.

          • stranger

            His another article, i’ve posted already to CLF68 in the other thread.
            The author is considering the involvement of all sides US, EU, Russia and Ukraine including volunteer battalions in this conflict starting from Maydan to the war at Donbas and analyses the separatist sentiments.
            https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299383810_The_Separatist_War_in_Donbas_A_Violent_Break-up_of_Ukraine
            That is the best summary i’ve seen so far. While he is Canadian Ukrainian, so no way for Russian propaganda. Please agree, that is not exactly how you have been describing that?

            as for the casualties:
            “The central government denies responsibility for civilian casualties during a war there, claiming that the separatists themselves are killing residents of the cities and villages in which they were based. The US and other Western governments generally ignore civilian casualty figures, claim a lack of evidence to determine responsibility for deadly attacks on civilians (while attributing them largely to Russian military actions), and argue that the Ukrainian forces are showing restraint in their use of force.

            The analysis of various sources, such as the UN and OSCE mission reports, videos of the attacks, and Western journalists on-site reports, suggests that the majority of civilian casualties during the Ukrainian attack stage and positional stages of the war resulted from shelling by the Ukrainian forces of cities, towns, and villages used by armed separatists
            as their bases (See, for example, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, 2015a, 2015b). Attacks on Luhansk, Stanytsia Luhanska, Horlivka, and Donetsk involved multiple civilian casualties stemming from both collateral casualties from shelling by the Ukrainian regular forces and volunteer far-right battalions of both rebels and civilians. However, the separatists or Russian forces were responsible for the most of major deadly attacks during their advance in January and February 2015, such as shelling of Volnovakha and Mariupol that resulted in multiple civilian casualties.”

          • stranger

            “they were Ukrainians and fair game for russians to treat as dogs and steal from murder and rape and torture.” you must be confusing them with Ukrainian volunteer nationalistic neo-nt3i battalions like Azov, Donbas, Aidar and others., whose war crimes against own Ukrainian citizens suspected in separatism are confirmed by Amnesty International. Though I agree that wars always attract the worst people from all sides.

          • boggled

            stranger
            read

            http://www.donbasswarcrimes.org/report/

            The Polish investigation into the crimes.
            This report is at the Hague for review, among many others.
            Please do not read report around children or if your underage or have weak stomach.
            I just want you and others who read here to know what is coming.
            from those that used torture basements and people like Motrolla who admitted executing 10+ soldiers and civilians himself against many rules of established laws of war.
            He was judge and punishment.

            Fare thee well

          • boggled

            The author/professor of your article is a known falsifier of data and liar on many of the political claims he made.
            I believe you referenced him in regards to Maidan shootings.

            A political science guy describing forensics and ballistics analysis that he has no experience in to be able to credibly comment on.
            He states regardless of this lack of knowledge that he is 100% sure Snipers were all Pravy Sektor or some other proMaidan group with rifles.
            He is wrong.

            As he was in relations to statements about Ukraine socialists states republic national archives being opened

            He also believe Crimean referendum was legitimate.
            While he comes closer to the center truth than the Kremlin party line (which trollops and their media promote), he is far from credible.

            Kremlin money reaches anywhere and this professor clearly collects it and writes articles that may damage his career in the long term the more and more he is exposed, I hope he was paid well.

            Fare thee well

          • boggled

            I hope you noticed his credentials
            Jobs – Food Biochemistry Professor
            He is little more then a high priced Kremlin useful idiot with a specialization in political science and food chemistry.
            Who has a family history that goes back to Ukraine hence RT and Kremlin use him as an ‘expert’ and pay him appropriately to comment.

            Search his last name in this article

            http://www.planetputin.com/tag/maidan/

            Maybe you will analyze Ivan before you just repeat his falsehoods.

            Fare thee well

          • stranger

            The professor is originally from Ukraine btw. He should not be believed just as is, but the claims and references can be checked. To the best of my understanding that is more or less consistent with all i’ve heard. If he is paid well then only by the Canadian institute he is working at.
            I found his article interesting and referenced him because it shows how all sides were involved into the conflict. That is completely different from what many on this forum claim. Particularly you are saying that almost all fighters at Donbas were Russian soldiers, while that is not confirmed by any other source.
            The atrocities report you sent is very important, and i believe mostly is true, though it shows only one side of the conflict. Why doesn’t it show the atrocities of Ukrainian volunteer battalions who openly wore swast1ka, doesn’t show the consequences of bombings, doesn’t show the political murders, etc. Btw if you’d take a look at separatists chiefs shown on the report, almost all of them are locals born in Donbas Ukrainian citizens. Only withdrawn Girkin and Boroday are russian citizens, they might have played a key role in inflaming this war in the beginning of course.
            So every side bears it’s part of responsibility for the violent revolt and the following war. Russia first of all.

          • boggled

            Stranger
            Yes, I know his family history
            And I admitted, he is more closer to the truth then most Kremlin media outlets and some of the far right media outlets of Ukraine.

            Still, his IMPORTANT claims are falsehoods and he still holds to giving proKremlin propaganda and NAF propaganda with more credibility than it is due.

            He, although close to the truth and does not embrace ALL the falsehoods of Kremlin media, goes out of his way to present this as more of a civil war then a Russian imposed war.
            He goes out of the way to promote (under his breath) that all at Maidan protesters were Hitler wannabees.
            Denying the fact that Rabbi”s from all over partook and participated in the Protest of Dignity.

            AS far as RF soldiers and citizens evidence
            Maybe you will read, and maybe you won’t

            http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/06/10/ex-terrorist-leader-only-an-idiot-will-deny-that-the-republics-in-donbas-are-a-kremlin-creation/

            http://uacrisis.org/42505-voyenna-rozvidka-2

            Borodai admits – http://ukraineunderattack.org/en/32221-about-50-thousand-russian-militants-fougt-in-donbas-former-gangs-leader.html

            There are more documents then just those you mentioned.
            And many records are kept sealed from journalists for prosecutions.
            That is how a real investigation and court work

            This article goes into detail about the leadership in Donbas
            http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-27211501

            Fare thee well

  8. boggled

    I am sorry Bellingcat authors and readers.
    Sometimes the denial, strikes a nerve.
    I do not mean to attack you personally stranger.
    It is the frustration I feel as much as you do (did) when you fell for the “SaveTheDonbass’ campaign.

    Delete my previous comment moderator, if you feel it is inappropriate and not helpful and relevant to the discussion and creates more problems then it solves.

    Sorry stranger and others for my tirade.

    Fare thee well

    Reply
    • denis cashcov

      What about the buk that Lysenko told us was videoed at the July 17 press conference?

      Reply
    • Ivan Katchanovski Falsifier

      Ivan Katchanovski is a falsifier of the Maidan massacre and contemporary history of Ukraine. Search by google ” Ivan Katchanovski is a falsifier “

      Reply

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