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Identifying Khmuryi, the Major General Linked to the Downing of MH17

February 15, 2017

By Daniel Romein

Translations: Русский

This article was collaboratively researched and written by the Bellingcat  MH17 Investigation Team.

On 18 July 2014, the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) published several tapped telephone conversations in relation to the July 17 downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 (MH17). Most of these conversations, recorded on the day of the downing, are between an officer identified as ‘Khmuryi’ (’Gloomy’ or ‘Grumpy’) and other separatist officers or soldiers of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic. The SBU identified ‘Khmuryi’ as ‘Sergey Nikolaevich Petrovsky’, a Russian GRU officer, but it took some time before this was covered in-depth by either Western or Russian-language media.

On 1 April 2015, the Dutch news organizations NRC, NOS and De Telegraaf wrote on Khmuryi after the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) published a video that included the tapped phone conversations, but audible censoring of the identities of the parties in the call. However, on 18 September 2014, Russian-language media site PolitRussia published an article and a video about ‘Khmuryi’, a DNR officer named Sergey Petrovsky, presenting a photograph and a video interview. This publication is based on a video from 27 June 2014 showing an interview with a member of the so-called Donbas People’s Militia with the call sign ‘Khmuryi’. However, that video does not provide the full name of the commander. As this article will show, the man interviewed who reportedly fought in Slavyansk and is from Moscow is almost certainly not the same “Khmuryi” from the intercepted telephone conversation. Another video, titled ‘Sergey Nikolaevich Petrovsky (call sign Khmuryi, Bad soldier)’ and uploaded 2 October 2014, shows a video message of a masked man, who according to the video title is Sergey Petrovsky. However, the video was previously uploaded on 12 June 2014, entitled ‘Spetsnaz of Strelkov,’ and this man seems to be a different person than the bearded man in the 27 June 2014 video, as his voice differs.

Left: Screenshot of the 18 July 2014 SBU video, showing the name ‘Khmuryi’ and his full name ‘Sergey Nikolaevich Petrovsky’. Middle: publication of PolitRussia from 18 September 2014, showing a bearded man, supposed to be Sergey Petrovsky. Right: A masked man, visible in a 2 October 2014 video, titled “Sergey Nikolaevich Petrvosky (callsign ‘Khmuryi’, Bad Soldier)”. Below: Video from the JIT showing several conversations between Khmuryi and separatists.

On 30 November 2014, an interview with General Sergey Nikolaevich Petrovsky was published on the Russian news site Politikus, making clear that he was then the head of the Main Intelligence Directorate (GRU) of the Donetsk People’s Republic and that his military career started in the Soviet army in 1984, when he participated in the war in Afghanistan. In the 90s, he took part in wars in North Ossetia and Chechnya, where he met Igor ‘Strelkov’ Girkin, who was the Minister of Defence of the Donetsk People’s Republic in 2014. In another interview, published 25 December 2014 on ultranationalist Russian news site Zavtra, he describes himself as Major General Sergey Petrovsky, born in 1962 in the Donetsk region. It is unclear if he achieved the rank of major general in the Russian Federation or the self-proclaimed separatist republic. He also described having over 30 years of service in the Soviet and Russian armies.  An earlier interview with ‘Khmuryi’, then a colonel, was published in 2003 on the Russian news site Izvestia, as mentioned in a 2016 publication on a blog named Globalized.  This blog, but also another blog on 28 November 2014, describes that a person who calls himself ‘Plokhoy Soldat’ (‘Bad Soldier’), with an avatar saying ‘Khmuryi’, frequently posted on a forum of the website Antikvariat, a website about history, military relics, and other topics, and where Igor ‘Strelkov’ Girkin also regularly posted messages about the war in Ukraine. In this forum, he wrote on 19 July 2014 that he is Colonel Sergey Nikolaevich Petrovsky, Deputy Minister of Defence of the Donetsk People’s Republic for guards reconnaissance.

It is because of Igor Girkin’s e-mail account that was hacked in May 2014 that the true identity of Sergey Petrovsky, which is not his real name, came to light. Several e-mails from Girkin’s e-mail account were published, among them an e-mail sent on 28 April 2014 from Sergey Dubinsky with e-mail address karahan1962@mail.ru, writing “Igor, this is Zubr [European bison], hi, do you still remember me??” This name and e-mail address lead to a social media profile that makes clear that Dubinsky was born on 9 August 1962 and lived in Donetsk, Ukraine.  It’s noteworthy to mention that this year of birth (1962) differs from SBU’s claim he was born in 1964. The e-mail address also leads to a forum on a website about the 181st Motorized Infantry Regiment, that belonged to the 108th Motorized Infantry Division, which was involved in the Afghan war from 1979 to 1989. In the forum, after a list of names of soldiers and the years they served, a guest introduces himself on 18 July 2010 as ‘Karakhan’ and Sergey Dubinsky, serving from 1985 to 1987, currently living in Donetsk, Ukraine. In 2011 he registered himself as user ‘Karakhan’, Sergey Dubinsky, born on 9 August 1962, and uploaded a photograph of himself in a military uniform, showing the rank of Colonel. One of his fellow veterans soon after uploaded several photographs of him as well, and in 2016 another fellow veteran uploaded a larger version of the photograph of Sergey Dubinsky in uniform and described him as ‘Petrovsky, Dvorkovskiy, Khmuryi, Zubr [European bison], Bison and our Karakhan’ and as ‘Khmuryi in DNR (Donetsk People’s Republic)’ in now-deleted posts on the forum. A video in the forum and a YouTube video show the same photograph of Sergey Dubinsky in a military uniform.

Top left: Khmuryi’s avatar on the Antikvariat forum; down left: photograph of Sergey Dubinsky in Afghanistan from his social media profile on ‘Moi Mir’ (My World); right: photograph of Sergey Dubinsky in a colonel uniform, uploaded in 2011.

The photograph of Sergey Dubinsky in uniform seems to have been edited (for example, a fragment of the medal ‘Order for Merit to the Fatherland’ on his tie seems to be missing), though the number of medals fit with a colonel and a military career since 1984. However, most of the medals on his uniform are from the Soviet era, such as the ‘Order of the Red Star’, ‘Order for Service to the Motherland in the Armed Forces of the USSR’, the medal ‘Veteran of the Armed Forces of the USSR’, all three medals ‘For Impeccable Service’ and a jubilee medal ’70 Years of the USSR Armed Forces’. The medals ‘Veteran of the Armed Forces of the USSR’ were only awarded to people who served in the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union for 25 years or more and the medals ‘For Impeccable Service’ were awarded to people who served 10, 15 and 20 years in the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union, so with a military career that started in 1984 it’s impossible for him to have these medals, as the Soviet Union ceased to exist in 1991.  Two medals on the bottom right are medals for veterans of the Afghan war: the badge for ‘Soldiers-Internationalists’ and the medal ‘From the Grateful Afghan People’. Only the two medals ‘Order of Courage’ up left could have been awarded during his service in the Russian army. The medal up right seems to be the jubilee medal ‘50 Years of Victory in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945’, a medal that was awarded in 1993, according to another source, only to veterans of the 2nd World War and former underage prisoners of concentration camps. Since Dubinsky was born in 1962, he could not belong to these two categories.

Articles about the Donetsk People’s Republic published his photograph on 10 August 2015, 14 September 2015 and 12 November 2015, but only on 19 November 2016 the link to MH17 was made on a website about Donetsk. Data and photographs of Sergey Dubinsky were published on the website of ‘Mirotvorets’ (‘Peacemaker’), an organization that gathers personal information largely from open sources on Russians, separatists, and alleged collaborators related to the war in the Donbas. On 7 February 2017, an open source research collective InformNapalm published additional information about Sergey Dubinsky and the exact location of his current residence: ulitsa Molodozhnaya 4B, Bolshoy Log, Rostov Oblast in Russia.

Bellingcat found another social media profile of Sergey Nikolaevich Dubinsky, with information indicating that this user was born on 9 August 1962, and living in Donetsk, Ukraine, and in Rostov-on-Don, Russia. According to the photographs from this profile, Dubinsky and his family were living in Russia in 2010, but apparently lived in Ukraine in the summer of 2011. According to an openly accessible traffic police database of Rostov-on-Don, Sergey Nikolaevich Dubinsky, born on 9 August 1962, lived in Stepnoy in an undefined street house number 1, apartment 117, and had three different cars registered on his name between 1998 and 2004. Stepnoy in the Rostov Oblast is a military village, where the 22nd Spetsnaz Brigade (literally translated as the 22th Separate Brigade for Special Purposes), or military unit 11659 is located, a military unit that is part of the ‘GRU’, the Main Intelligence Directorate.

Photographs in his album prove that he was in Donetsk, Ukraine in the autumn and December of 2014. On the autumn 2014 photograph Dubinsky is visible next to Russian actor Mikhail Porechenkov, who visited Donetsk on 30 October 2014. In the December 2014 photograph, Russian actor Ivan Okhlobystin, who is banned from Ukraine because of his support to pro-Russian separatists, and his wife Oksana Arbuzova are visible. He visited the Donbas area in late November 2014 and Donetsk on 30 November 2014, where he seems to have met Igor ‘Strelkov’ Girkin and claims to have received a watch for Christmas from ‘Khmuryi’, General Major Sergey Nikolaevich Petrovsky.

Sergey Dubinsky (right) with Mikhail Porechenkov (left) in Donetsk, Ukraine, autumn 2014, photograph uploaded 15 October 2016.

Sergey Dubinsky (middle) in Donetsk, Ukraine, in December 2014, photograph uploaded 15 October 2016. Left: Ivan Okhlobystin, Right: Ivan’s wife Oksana Arbuzova.

The December 2014 photograph shows Sergey Dubinsky in what appears to be a Russian military uniform with the rank major general, quite comparable to, for example, the 2015 uniform of Russia’s Defense Ministry Spokesperson Major General Igor Konashenkov. Dubinsky seems to wear a shoulder patch of either ‘Spetsnaz GRU’, the special forces of the Russian Main Intelligence Directorate, or the Russian Ground Forces, though he reportedly resigned from the Russian Armed Forces in April 2014.

It seems that Dubinsky left Donetsk in early 2015 and was even denied entry to the Donetsk People’s Republic because of extracting money from businessmen. A decree of the Russian Federation of 17 April 2015 (which has been archived) sought to revoke money from Sergey Dubinsky, and described how he received a pension for his service in several military units. The first unit named is military unit 61019, a unit that was very likely disbanded quite some time ago, as no information is available on it online. The second unit mentioned is the aforementioned military unit 11659, or the 22nd Spetsnaz Brigade, and the third unit mentioned is military unit 51019, or the 116th Separate Special Purpose Radio Unit, located in Stepnoy.

Photographs uploaded in the summer of 2016 show Dubinsky’s new house, which was geolocated to the same location of the InformNapalm article: ulitsa Molodozhnaya in Bolshoy Log, Rostov Oblast in Russia. Only the house number is not clear, as Google and Yandex maps do not specify house numbers for all the houses in that street, but likely the house number is 4a, rather than 4b. The view in the photograph corresponds to the view behind the house on Google Streetview. Another photograph shows Dubinsky in a Canadian-produced vehicle, a Can-Am Commander XT, worth almost $15,000 when purchased new.

The new house of Sergey Dubinsky, where he (and his family) very likely live since 2015, photograph uploaded 8 August 2016.

Sergey Dubinsky sitting in a Can-Am Commander XT, likely in front of his house, photograph uploaded 4 August 2016.

Bellingcat’s conclusion is that the man whose telephone was tapped by the Ukrainian Security Service on 17 July 2014, assuming the SBU correctly identified his voice and/or knew that the intercepted telephone number belonged to him and was thus involved in the transport of the Buk missile launcher that downed MH17 on the same date, is named Sergey Nikolaevich Dubinsky, nicknamed ‘Khmuryi’. Dubinsky is a Russian war veteran and was a colonel in July 2014, fought in the Soviet-Afghan war and later in Chechnya, and later served in the 22nd Spetsnaz Brigade, a unit connected to the ‘GRU’, the Main Intelligence Directorate. This man does not appear to be the same person as the bearded man, who likely coincidentally also used the call sign ‘Khmuryi’ in a June 2014 interview; Dubinsky wrote in the Antikvariat forum on 2 July 2014 that he had been confused with someone else “from Slavyansk.” However, Dubinsky may be the same person as the masked man in an October 2014 video titled ‘Sergey Nikolaevich Petrovsky (call sign Khmuryi, Bad Soldier)’, previously uploaded on 12 June 2014 as ‘Spetsnaz of Strelkov’. Dubinsky wrote in the same post of 2 July 2014 on the Antikvariat forum that he is not a man seen in the media, with one exception, just as he read in the text of the 12 June 2014 video.

Sergey Dubinsky was granted the higher rank of major general in the Donetsk People’s Republic in, apparently, August 2014, shortly after the downing of MH17, and later relocated to the Russian Federation after being expelled from Donetsk for alleged financial crimes. Nowadays Dubinsky lives a fairly luxurious life for Russian standards, in a quiet village, spending time with his family and enjoying rides in an expensive recreational vehicle.

Daniel Romein

Daniel Romein is an IT-specialist and open source investigator focused on the MH17 case and the conflict in Ukraine. He started as volunteer in 2014 and currently works as full time employee for Bellingcat.

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491 Comments

  1. oui oui

    stranger – February 16, 2017
    Even IF we assume the rebels shot it from Russian supplied buk by mistake. So what?

    CFL68 – February 16, 2017
    “So what?”

    It matters because it would mean Russia is an active participant in state sponsored aggression against Ukraine, and there is a whole avalanche of repercussions from that. It means Putin has been lying to his people and the world all along about Russian involvement. Hundreds of times he and his administration have lied as a policy of state – pretending to be for peace while being the actual culprits. It is so important that Russia has been lying for years to cover its atrocities.

    If it wasn’t important than ask Putin why the entire government apparatus of Russia has been lying all along.

    Reply
    • stranger

      And when you copy paste, copy the whole comment, not only the phrases picked out of context. Ok? Agree?

      Reply
    • kurush

      It only means that guerilla warfare with Buk missile launcher is a batshit crazy idea. There is plenty of evidence of all kinds of russian equipment on the other side of the border and also of the cross border shelling with Grad. And they lie just because it is almost impossible to admit that your actions lead to a civilian plane shot down.

      Reply
    • YoursTruly

      First of all, kudos to the B-cat team on the research – it’s not easy to pull together/juxtapose info like this (especially from less mainstream sources). As state gov’s are occupied with their chores, and local press being biased, this is the only type of info-piecing that holds any water. And, the more pieces fall together the less probable is the falsehood of the outcome.

      Please carry on your work and I’ll be watching very closely. It is important as the communities indirectly involved (but very related) in this mess around the globe are interested in proper attribution.
      (and all disregard extensive trolling undertake by certain individuals outright).

      Reply
  2. Dude

    stranger – February 16, 2017
    Even IF we assume the rebels shot it from Russian supplied buk by mistake. So what?


    The Hague. The International Criminal Court. The prison. Fine things like that “what”. 🙂

    For Hmyryiii, for Pootler, and also hopefully for you, Comrade Stranger, for being their bitch 🙂

    Reply
    • stranger

      Oh, what an honer for me to be recognized so high! Did you hear the principal of the freedom of speach and also about common sense? Hardly, westerner! Ah Ukrainians are vindictive, I forgot. Call themselves democrats but show up as worse tyrants when you are given a bit of power. )))))

      Reply
    • Тот самый хмурый

      Bring your “hero” poroshenko to the court, stop blaming Putin in everything what is happening in the world, can you hear yourself sometimes ? Looks like not at all … Putin is guilty in everything ? FACTS please. Not these “coach journalists” investigations, but real facts. You don’t have any. But one day, all your lie will come up, and whole world will see different ukraine, full of sh*t.

      Reply
      • Dude

        Mr. “Khmyryiiii”.
        The way I see it, in rushka you only have three choices:
        – to end up like “Motorylo”
        – to end up like “Givi”
        – to end up like Zhilin.
        If you know what i mean.

        Whereas, in the Netherlands, there is no death penalty, and their prisons are quite comfortable, i hear. If you know what i mean 🙂 🙂 🙂

        Reply
        • Тот самый хмурый

          You are far away from reality. Stop watching UA TV and rely on it. Watch You Tube channel ‘Анатолий Шарий’ it will help you to wake up and see, how many bs around this western mass media.

          Reply
          • Taras_cs

            Shariy said that if there is ukrainian BUK #312 then MH17 could not be downed by russian BUK #332
            Yeah, Shariy is THAT stupid))

  3. striker

    Fake
    Foto Mikhail Porechenkov & Ivan Okhlobystin
    “2014 год”
    The distance between letters “г” and “о”

    Reply
  4. Andrea

    Was enjoying the amusing discussion up here and a question came to my mind:

    STRANGER, you are against the “coup” happened in Kiev, can i ask why?
    Cause a coup is unlawful?
    Cause they remove a lawful government?

    Reply
    • stranger

      No problem, Andrew.
      Actually all our discussions so far were about that. Not sure how to explain it concisely.
      Briefly if it didn’t concern Russia, that would be their internal business. From Russian prospective:
      It ruined Russian plans to unite major 3 countries and other republic into the single trade union wher ideally everybody would win. Exactly the union Clinton promised to prevent in 2012.
      Ukraine is separated into more or less proRussian east and formerly Crimea and more less neutral or strict anti Russian west. The overthrown candidate was supported by proRussian areas verses antiRussian. Ukraine has come under the direct management of US.
      Non the least the Black Sea Fleet in Crimea since 1765 or so year which Russia couldn’t have allowed to be replaced by NAT0 ships.
      Non the least some kind of Slavic home relationships which I can hardly explain here.
      For Ukrainian prospective:
      That was unlawful of course and a dirty play because all previous agreements with Russia and with EU were broken.
      People have died at Maydan, 100 dead, hundreds injured, anarchy and violence began.
      Russia protects her markets from European goods, I Ukraine is open for the import, and no borders between Ukraine and Russia, the import would flow to Russia, or so. So Russia had to close own markets for Ukraine.
      The trading relationships with Russia were broken even from the side of Ukraine with the formulation to punish the aggressor. As the result Ukrainian industries integrated with Russia go to hell pulling the whole Ukraine there.
      The proposed Euro Association appeared mostly a myth, short term it is harmful for Ukraine. And even this formulation is threatened by Dutchs. EU ensures Dutches that will never lead to joining Ukraine.
      Something like that in my opinion. Nothing of above would happen if not for the coup. Read all our discussion that is all about it.

      Reply
    • stranger

      Also because the western media blame Russia for “aggression” and completely “forget” what caused, the reason, why that happened. They are completely deaf and silent on the coup and related topics. Imagine they were objective and investigated honestly – how many new things would we know…

      Reply
      • Andrea

        But the “aggression” actually took place, it can’t be denied!
        It’s full of proofs of cross-border salvos, of russian soldiers fighting and dying in Ukraine…of russian heavy weapons somehow appearing in Ukraine…

        Reply
        • stranger

          But you should look in context, starting at least from the coup. Wasn’t the coup violence, breaking all agreements, letting all US people to take key positions in the government. That is also a kind of agression. Why nobody is talking about it?

          Reply
          • Geo

            “letting all US people to take key positions in the government” – hahaha!!! You are BARKING MAD, dear stranger!

          • stranger

            Let’s count:
            – Yatsenukh was absolutely pro US prime minister and after retirement went to live to US in Mayami
            – Natalya Jaresko, the new Ukrainian minister of finance 2014-2016 is a citizen of US
            – Saakashvily, the former Georgia president and former governor of Odessa region in Ukraine, claimed Trump is his best friend and once fired from Ukraine, rushed to Trump inaguaration to the States, probably to talk him over against Russia 🙂
            – Poroshenko was doing exactly what Biden told him, just a puppet of US. He couldn’t conduct any sovereign policy because needed political support against Russia, that’s his only chance.
            Who else?

        • brylcream

          It’s full of proofs of cross-border salvos, of russian soldiers fighting and dying in Ukraine…of russian heavy weapons somehow appearing in Ukraine…”

          Yes, the evidence is mounting… like the Ukrainian officials providing the pictures from 2008 to the US Congress. Remember that fail?

          How is it possible that the OSCE could’t find that Russian troops? How is it possible that the Chief of Staff of the Ukrainian army is saying that they aren’t fighting the Russian troops? Strange.
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNx2DvY3qaw

          Reply
          • Andrea

            Man… can’t again start discussing this… i’m not an idiot, i don’t have so much free time to waste!
            Just read the OSCE report in which they found a TOS-1 (that Ukraine never had in its arsenal)…
            for me more than enough…

        • stranger

          Crimeas voted on a referendum. They really welcome joining Russia and don’t want to return. That is a FACT that cannot be denied. Almost no people were hurt on taking Ukrainian bases. Really from hundreds bases only one resisted. There were same crimeans in the Ukrainian military base who didn’t want to fight, they were really chatting as with friends with Russian Black Sea personal. If it is an aggression, no war, no fighting, many Crimeans serving at Ukrainian bases just signed the contract with Russia and staid to serve there. Crimeans supported and welcomed Russia.
          Donbas is a different story.

          Reply
          • Andrea

            In fact i’m not speaking about Crimea 😉
            Not that i agree with what you said…

          • stranger

            But CFL called that a “lethal attack” and agression in Crimea.
            Why don’t you agree on Crimea, when I’m sure about something, I’m sure, when doubt I say that.
            On Crimea I’m pretty sure. I read blogs from locals, I know a couple of people from there personally, that is what Ukrainians themselves say.

          • CFL68

            You are denying that Russia used lethal force in Crimea? Gosh I thought I saw guns and soldiers and apcs, etc. Perhaps I was mistaken…

            blyaaaaaaaaaaaa.

            Again – Why lie? If you have just cause and the situation warrants – then make war! The reason Russia lies is because it does not have just cause and the situation does not warrant.

            Duh?

          • stranger

            Donbas is different, but I’m sure nobody could have imagined how much blood would shed. I really don’t know what russia thought and how deep Strelkov obeyed that “strategy” if ever. But maximum what they planned may be, that Ukraine wouldn’t dare to kill own civilians, and if it would, EU would ask Russia to come to recover the order. Maybe, I’m not an Russian official or CIA spy to tell you exactly. But you see Ukraine dared to kill, EU under the pressure of US pushed Russia to stay away, Russia in publically helped the rebels as she could to stay and create some king of organization, what they call a republic. I see it something like that now. But saying that Russian army is fighting in Ukraine and going to capture all Ukraine or kill population is absolutely wrong.

          • stranger

            For Crimea I’m pretty sure. For Donbas above that is just my personal impression on the current moment, I may be wrong or Russian plans or strategy. But I’m pretty sure most of the fighters and officials now are locals and no regular Russian army is there. I’m sure the populatetion there is lost for Ukraine after so much bloodshed ukraine brought there. Did you see how a regular Russian army looks like, at least in Crimea? But having said that, please continue arguing trying to explain what it was there. 😉

          • stranger

            CFL: “If you have just cause and the situation warrants – then make war!”
            Do you understand what you are calling to? Wanna restart a civilization so that only cockroaches survived the nuclear winter and repeated million years way to an intellect and another million to get to our level of civilization? Imagine all new people would be six-legged and have long sensing mustaches?

          • CFL68

            Stop being so deliberately obtuse. I was making the rhetorical point that Russia has no just cause and therefore lies about its involvement. Why would Russia lie if it had casus belli?

            Keep on with your games I’m sure you think it serves some purpose. But if you look at history you must realize that there will be an accounting for Russian aggression. Right now you goons still pretend there is some ambiguity but time will provide greater and greater clarity on the depths of Russian aggression. It does not make Russia look good.

            The lies and denials are proof enough that you know the truth will damn you.

          • stranger

            And one more million years for radioactive mateials to decay in a natural way. Are you sure our Sun is going to live so long? Imagine a cold red dwarf smoldering in the sky and cockroach like new people walking by the snow desert warming up in oxygen space-suits.

          • stranger

            “Keep on with your games I’m sure you think it serves some purpose. ”
            Look at my last serious posts, I clearly said what I honestly think. In other posts I’m also honest. I cannot be completely unbiased but I don’t try to deceive anybody. I confirm everything with the sources. If you are unable to follow the logic of the other side or sides, your problems.

    • stranger

      And the western politicians completely “forget” that they helped and even promoted that to happen in Ukraine. They switch all their responsibility to the convenient “scapegoat” – Russia. With all wrong Russia did. Many third parties players made it possible or even forcefully pushed this way.

      Reply
      • CFL68

        Poor Russia being ‘scapegoated’ for their invasion and annexation of Crimea, and for sending thousands of killers and tanks and grads and buks into Ukraine to make war.

        I mean sure Russia did all these things.

        But they are scapegoats.

        Just because I said so and because there are people in Ukraine who speak Russian and did I ever tell you about malorussians and how Ukraine isn’t really a country?

        Don’t even get me started on Nuland’s cookies. I blame the USA and the illuminati for forcing Ukrainians to believe that following path of every other former Kremlin sputnik in Europe would be a good thing and improve their lives. Bombing them is proof that their lives are worse. You see? I am right… Ukrainians are dead and Russian tankers from Buryatia are scapegoats for shooting down Dutch children.

        And if it did happen, then ‘so what?’

        Reply
        • stranger

          Russia is not ‘poor’ please remember the destiny on Napoleon who subjugated all Europe previously, remember H1tler who “united” all Europe to invade USSR and who liberated you from na3ism.

          Yes tell us about Nulland. I ever INSIST you tell us what did she meant when she said “let’s get Rober Perry with Pan GI Moon he would help us to glue things vie UN and f..k EU” tell us from that phone call in addition to cookies. You try to hide it and try not to comment. But please, go ahead.

          Reply
          • CFL68

            What are you insinuating? We can only speculate as to the meaning of specific words – but the context is clear: Yanukovych made surprise offer to Yats and Klitchko to bring them into government to diffuse situation. US clearly supports this. The US did not choose these people, Yanukovych did.

            By ‘glue it together’ the most direct meaning would be that the US wanted support from UN rep/leader to make this coalition government happen. It was a fast moving situation. Not sure about the back story for “F the EU” comment but we can speculate that the EU was not going to take a leading position in supporting this initiative, perhaps due to Russian opposition? I don’t know. Does it make a difference?

            The truth of the call is not proof of a US coup, but the exact opposite. In addition, it proves that the US were not controlling puppet masters but merely diplomats trying like everyone else to influence situation. In fact they could not even get opposition to agree to join government. Some coup eh?

          • stranger

            Look, Nulland met Yanuk almost every day pushing him to remove any obstacles for protesters. US didn’t noticed when protesters started to injury disarmed cops, US didn’t notice when the snipers and firearms appeared from protesters. US applied sanctions on Yanuk government and reacted harshly when any response violence came from the cop. US didn’t sing the peace power transition, when EU did. Nulland was blatantly publically lying that the protests were peaceful. That is only what we know for sure from public sources. There a huge underwater piece we would never see.
            And you are saying US didn’t manage the coup to succeed? And didn’t put all people dedicated to them in the key government positions?
            Why the adding new ministers into Yanuk government with the agreement with Yanuk demanded to “glue things” in UN, does it a matter of UN. Maybe they wanted to recognize the coup outcome via UN bypassing Europe?

          • bkidz

            WWII was started by both H1tler and Usssr starting with joint invasion of Poland and Baltic states. Then soviet and nazis singed the bilateral pact/ treaty and held the joint parade in Brest. Before that Ussr had tried to blatantly seize Finland. What a liberation act?
            Why don’t you speak loud about millions of innocently-repressed people and those who were tortured by NKVD/KGB and were killed in camps.
            And yes, please remember the destiny of each dictator, the doom of each empire…

          • stranger

            bkidz: “What a liberation act?”
            USSR liberated Europe from H1tler na3ists, and allowed US to safe millions of soldier lives by paying with 27 million of own lives of own soldiers and civilians. USSR, Britain, France were all allies against H1tler and his united European collaborators.
            Didn’t you hear about that? What history are you taught, an alternating? How easily you did forget about that…

          • stranger

            Sorry, and of course USSR and the United States were allies in WW2 (did you know?) as for the pact, do know how many other European countries made a pact with H1tler and how many of them were fighting with him against allies Britain, USA and USSR (Russia)?? Did you hear about the prior division on Chekoslovakia between Germany, Poland (!) and Hungary? Poland received what it did. If you against the captured Poland territories, which btw were officially agreed on Ww2 agreements while Poland received part of German territories, but if you are against just ask Ukraine to return those lands to Poland.

      • Andrea

        So, somehow it’s others fault cause of what russia HAD TO DO in Ukraine?

        Seems something that holds in a courtroom…but only if russia is proved to be incapable of consent… and this would be amazing!

        Reply
        • stranger

          No, exactly the opposite. You (like US, western media) should not have supported and helped to succeeed the coup which triggered all those events. That now you should calmly and accurately analyze what happened, how did you behave, how did other sides and admit also your own faults. Then you should start negotiations with all involved sides to resolve the situation peacefully.

          Reply
        • stranger

          I’m not justifying Russia, I’m just saying why that is important for Russia why the coup was very harmful for Ukraine and show your hypocracy when you pushed Ukraine to the violence made it happen and then dropped and unable to admit own faults blaming only Russia.

          Reply
          • Yuri

            But obviously little Putin sending in weapons was much more harmful. Orders of magnitude that is.

  5. brylcream

    Just to add something about that JIT video regarding the alleged BUK route. On the 4th minute you could see a video from Zugres. Well, some people found the person that took that video from his balcony and according to him he recorded that video two weeks before JIT is claiming.

    https://youtu.be/VvgaJYKRM8Y?t=47s

    Reply
    • CFL68

      Is he the same guy who interviewed the Ukrainian pilot who shot down mh17? Fascinating stuff. And all the other videos of the same buk in the same convoy deep in rebel territory at multiple locations along the route when the rebels claim they had no buk, and the Russians claim they are not involved in conflict in Ukraine.

      Got it!

      Reply
      • brylcream

        What video with the Ukrainian pilot?

        All your posts here are just a bunch of lies and you’re repeating these all over again and again.

        None of those videos with a Buk aren’t connected with any particular time and we don’t know when they’re recorded. The SBU lied to many times to be trusted by anyone. First they claimed that the BUK ‘312’ was that BUK that sot down that unfortunate plane, they even placed that at their official website.
        After they’re busted and the operator of that exact BUK, a Ukrainian soldier showed up with an interview where he explained everything about that BUK they removed it. Same as Bellingcat that was chasing that same BUK for months.
        http://web.archive.org/web/20140721205539/http://www.sbu.gov.ua/sbu/control/uk/publish/article?art_id=129099&cat_id=39574

        Reply
    • Andrea

      haha… love how there is no description in those YT videos and the “author” doesn’t present any kind of proof of what he says… just trust his word 😉
      LOVE how he misses that the first to upload the video on Youtube was a guy nicknamed “Adrei And”… And the interviewer asks for many pseudonyms… but casually not this one…

      A copy uploaded by the same guy is still visible on GoogleDrive
      https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-QvELHUEYulaGpBZ21ma1RTUkE/edit

      Reply
      • CFL68

        Its amazing the lengths Russia will go to fabricate false narratives and hide the truth.

        Here is another great video of the same buk convoy deep in rebel territory in Makeevka on the exact route towards launch site. See the traffic circle at Avtotransportnaya and Rjepina Streets…

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvwH0T2WCN0

        Russia is working so hard to lie about its involvement. And stranger says ‘So What?’

        Total mthr/fkrs of the most cynical and depraved sort. What justification do they have so fabricate such heinous lies? Its as if they are another species.

        If Russia has just cause let them proclaim it confidently. If Russia made a mistake let them admit it an pay reparations and move on. By choreographing such elaborate webs of lies they are just reinforcing the fact that they are a menace to their neighbors and the world community. This cannot be over-stated.

        Their deception is too violent and intentional.

        Reply
        • brylcream

          Actually, they analysed that blurred video also and found out some interesting thing. There is an Elderberry bush in that video in a full bloom. In that region an Elderberry doesn’t blossom anymore. That’s probably the reason why that video was intentionally blurred. Or was it recorded by a VHS camera?

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m140AXJxfyY

          Reply
          • stranger

            Please, double check the video and check his claims by a botanic book. This weirdest guy on the video I have ever seen is fooling us and know about it, that’s why he is always smiling by the cats smile. That is because BiCats are paying him Soros money, definitely. Throw him away, but don’t throw his claims, dbl check them and if sure take them into account of course.

        • brylcream

          * In that region an Elderberry doesn’t blossom anymore in July when that video is allegedly taken.

          So an an Elderberry blossom in June in Donbass.

          Reply
          • CFL68

            LOL kinda desperate? Nice production values. I find old guy with British accent very credible 😉 – especially when he is sitting in that nice arm chair! He should do that on this video too! Who is he? Who does he work for? Honestly I didn’t watch the whole video. Are their detailed credits at the end or is it a mysterious anonymous old dude full of facts backed my a production team of traktoristi?

            How many theories did Russia propose about su25’s or Ukrainian buks or machine guns? How many videos have been produced – even by so-called engineers – trying to prove how an su25 intercepted and shot down mh17 with its cannon… Or other blurry still images of buk convoy in Donetsk that had wild conspiracy theories? Of course the trolls shut up as soon as JIT published the actual video the stills were taken from… another B/S distraction debunked – no worries – on the the next! Now its a purported elderberry bush. Before it was shadows. It doesn’t matter what. Just throw out claims and make everyone run in circles.

            This is what I don’t understand. Why go to such lengths to lie??? I know many many Russians. Many good people. How has your system produced terrible people with so little integrity and respect for human life and rule of law that they will engage in such massive and lethal deceptions? Especially when the truth is clear…

            Its a real tragedy. Russia is on a very dark road and many people are dying.

          • brylcream

            How many theories did Russia propose…”

            Were these official Russian versions? No.
            The journalists can write whatever they want. On the contrary that JIT report is official and it’s a joke. Just showing how legitimate that ‘investigation’ really is.

            Do you realize how ridiculous you are? You can write walls of your lies but that doesn’t matter.
            How long would such evidence like that alleged route stand in any trial? All of that is just pure smoke and mirrors

          • CFL68

            “Were these official Russian versions? No.”

            Really? What was the official Russian version? Surely due to proximity and all the implications Russia conducted its own thorough investigation and cooperated fully with international investigation?

            I’m not sure if you consider Putin’s generals to be ‘authorities’ – but these guys gave a classic press conference where they claimed that the radar signature from the debris cloud of the destroyed mh17 that hovered in one place for 4 minutes (as it fell from 33000 feet) was in fact a Ukrainian su25 ground attack jet. His reasoning was that since the dead children and body parts falling from sky did not provide a proper transponder signal, that they must be a Ukrainian jet.

            I’m no general, but I immediately understood what the stationary radar signature, that appeared in the exact spot of mh17 after it was destroyed, actually was.

            Were Russians confused by this story? They debated it for years on Russian TV. Of course some people called it shameful BS from the first day. Check out some of Lukashevich’s interviews:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCUt2FbYLOU&t=29s
            Here is a long and detailed one that blows up most of the stupid Russian theories:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjL4PMLBCSY&t=571s

            As for smoke and mirrors, it will be interesting when this moves to international criminal prosecution phase. Laugh now all you want. Perpetrators, and those who actively covered up the crime, run a high risk of trouble.

          • CFL68

            “Were these official Russian versions? No.”

            Really? What was the official Russian version? Surely due to proximity and all the implications Russia conducted its own thorough investigation and cooperated fully with international investigation?

            I’m not sure if you consider Putin’s generals to be ‘authorities’ – but these guys gave a classic press conference where they claimed that the radar signature from the debris cloud of the destroyed mh17 that hovered in one place for 4 minutes (as it fell from 33000 feet) was in fact a Ukrainian su25 ground attack jet. His reasoning was that since the dead children and body parts falling from sky did not provide a proper transponder signal, that they must be a Ukrainian jet.

            I’m no general, but I immediately understood what the stationary radar signature, that appeared in the exact spot of mh17 after it was destroyed, actually was. Did you?

            Were Russians confused by this story? They debated it for years on Russian TV. Of course some people called it shameful nonsense from the first day. Check out some of Lukashevich’s interviews:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCUt2FbYLOU&t=29s

            Here is a long and detailed one that blows up most of the stupid Russian theories:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjL4PMLBCSY&t=571s

            As for smoke and mirrors, it will be interesting when this moves to international criminal prosecution phase. Laugh now all you want. Perpetrators, and those who actively covered up the crime, run a high risk of very well deserved trouble.

          • CFL68

            (keep getting censored…)

            “Were these official Russian versions? No.”

            Really? What was the official Russian version? Surely due to proximity and all the implications Russia conducted its own thorough investigation and cooperated fully with international investigation?

            I’m not sure if you consider Putin’s generals to be ‘authorities’ – but these guys gave a classic press conference where they claimed that the radar signature from the debris cloud of the destroyed mh17 that hovered in one place for 4 minutes (as it fell from 33000 feet) was in fact a Ukrainian su25 ground attack jet. His reasoning was that since the body parts falling from sky did not provide a proper transponder signal, that they must be a Ukrainian jet. He really proposed this as a theory. Blyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

            I’m no general, but I immediately understood what the stationary radar signature, that appeared in the exact spot of mh17 after it was destroyed, actually was. Did you?

            Were Russians confused by this story? They debated it for years on Russian TV. Of course some people called it shameful nonsense from the first day. Check out some of Lukashevich’s interviews:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCUt2FbYLOU&t=29s

            Here is a long and detailed one that blows up most of the stupid Russian theories:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjL4PMLBCSY&t=571s

            As for smoke and mirrors, it will be interesting when this moves to international criminal prosecution phase. Laugh now all you want. Perpetrators, and those who actively covered up the crime, run a high risk of very well deserved trouble. Hope they get a full dish of it.

          • CFL68

            (keep getting censored…)

            “Were these official Russian versions? No.”

            Really? What was the official Russian version? Surely due to proximity and all the implications Russia conducted its own thorough investigation and cooperated fully with international investigation?

            I’m not sure if you consider Putin’s generals to be ‘authorities’ – but these guys gave a classic press conference where they claimed that the radar signature from the debris cloud of the destroyed mh17 that hovered in one place for 4 minutes (as it fell from 33000 feet) was in fact a Ukrainian su25 ground attack jet. His reasoning was that since the people falling from sky did not provide a proper transponder signal, that they must be a Ukrainian jet. He really proposed this as a theory.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bNPInuSqfs

            I’m no general, but I immediately understood what the stationary radar signature, that appeared in the exact spot of mh17 after it was destroyed, actually was. Did you?

            Were Russians confused by this story? They debated it for years on Russian TV. Of course some people called it shameful nonsense from the first day. Check out some of Lukashevich’s interviews:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCUt2FbYLOU&t=29s

            Here is a long and detailed one that blows up most of the stupid Russian theories:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjL4PMLBCSY&t=571s

            As for smoke and mirrors, it will be interesting when this moves to international criminal prosecution phase. Laugh now all you want. Perpetrators, and those who actively covered up the crime, run a high risk of very well deserved trouble. Hope they get a full dish of it.

          • CFL68

            (keep getting censored…)

            “Were these official Russian versions? No.”

            Really? What was the official Russian version? Surely due to proximity and all the implications Russia conducted its own thorough investigation and cooperated fully with international investigation?

            I’m not sure if you consider Putin’s generals to be ‘authorities’ – but these guys gave a classic press conference where they claimed that the radar signature from the debris cloud of the destroyed mh17 that hovered in one place for 4 minutes (as it fell from 33000 feet) was in fact a Ukrainian su25 ground attack jet. His reasoning was that since the people falling from sky did not provide a proper transponder signal, that they must be a Ukrainian jet. He really proposed this as a theory.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bNPInuSqfs

            I’m no general, but I immediately understood what the stationary radar signature, that appeared in the exact spot of mh17 after it was destroyed, actually was. Did you?

      • brylcream

        “and the “author” doesn’t present any kind of proof of what he says”

        What proof the JIT presented? They aren’t able to determine the exact type of a BUK missile that hit that plane after two years of ‘ínvestigation’. Check the JIT report, they only specified a series of missile and actual missiles in that series are completely different from each other regarding the fragments that they carry.
        Just smoke and mirrors. Kerry publicly said on cameras that they have satellite recordings. Where are these?
        It’s simple, just show them and everything would be clear.
        Ukraine shot down a Russian plane in 2001 but they were denying that until the Americans provided their satellite data. The Russians determined the exact type of missile that hit the plane after recovering the parts from the sea.

        Reply
        • CFL68

          JIT report is fully referenced and open for critique by any experts. Sealed evidence will be used in prosecutions.

          Its really funny that no level of evidence would satisfy you since you can always make claim on interwebs that it isn’t good evidence. Photo/video of buk in rebel territory. Audio of perps talking about it. Interviews with perps confirming authenticity of audio recordings. Fragments of buk taken from victims…

          “Kerry publicly said on cameras that they have satellite recordings.”

          Did he really? I hope he provided to investigation team. Do you have link where he claims this? Honestly I have never seen the original just people talking about it. I do know that after mh17 Kerry talked about and presented sat images as evidence of rocket artillery fire – but I never saw the mh17 stuff specifically.

          Thanks!

          Reply
          • brylcream

            JIT report is fully referenced and open for critique by any experts. Sealed evidence will be used in prosecutions.”

            No, it isn’t. They completely ignored experiments that Almaz-Antey, the producer of BUK systems made by detonating two different missiles. They were invited to these experiments but have ignored them. In the August 2015 the Russian delegation was even forbidden to take any photos at the meeting.
            Australia, Netherlands, Belgium and Ukraine signed a NDA which requires consensus among the parties before information regarding investigation will be released.

            Video of the Ukrainian BUK is also available, so what?

            Kerry:

            This is an unconscionable crime on a huge international order that findings already without the full investigation being done, and we are pressing for a full investigation, because nothing is complete until you have a full investigation. But there is no question — and we’ve said this publicly previously — but that this type of weapon and all the evidence of it was seen on our imagery. We saw the (off mic) we saw the trajectory, we saw the hit, we saw this airplane disappear from a radar screen. So there’s really no mystery about where it came from and where these weapons have come from.”
            https://www.defense.gov/News/Transcripts/Transcript-View/Article/606910/joint-press-conference-by-secretary-hagel-secretary-kerry-foreign-minister-bish

          • CFL68

            Well I guess we’ll have to see it settled in court then. Haven’t those Almaz guys changed their story a few times already? I think I gave you link previously where Vadim Lukashevich is discussing this and other theories. You need it again?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjL4PMLBCSY&t=831s

            He is very credible.

            Thanks for Kerry transcript. At first he is talking about ‘this type’ of weapon in general, and in speaking spontaneously he may have mis-stated. Or maybe not. Maybe the US does have imagery of Russian/rebel Buk. Apparently they did provide top secret intel to JIT team:

            “The Dutch Military Intelligence Service (MIVD) and the (Dutch) National Public Prosecutor on Terrorism have been able to view the underlying state-secret (intelligence) material and based on that information and the explanation provided, they support the fact that this conclusion is drawn.”

            Why would they need to give that to the Russians? To give proof to the Russian perps of what they already know 100%? Why not wait until there is an actionable court case and use it as evidence? This is a high profile international tragedy and top secret evidence does not need to be tossed about on the interwebs. At a minimum it is potential diplomatic leverage.

            But tell me this, if it turns out that Russia did provide the rebels with a ‘Buk s ekipazhom’, would you even care? Would it change your opinion in any way? Would you condemn Putin?

            The implications for Russia are pretty serious. The event occurred 2.5 years ago. Has Russia officially provided a credible version of events?

          • stranger

            “Haven’t those Almaz guys changed their story a few times already?”
            They were hesitating and publically honestly showed that. Russian national drawback.
            You Dutches wrote in the report in the small font at 1000 something page about the limitations and concerns of their methods (see TNO report) but publically they were so self confident and so stubborn as devils. Just PR behavior.
            Russians are tought to doubt and look for the truth, ready to look from different sides and understand their opponents. Europeans are taught to always defend own position, own report, always themselves, and disregards the opponents. Cultural difference issues.

          • CFL68

            Wow that is one of the most ridiculous things you have ever posted.

            You are drunk on this ‘russianness’ thing.

            Russia has vomited forth ever conceivable bogus theory about mh17 while quite deliberately ignoring the most glaringly obvious supported by all evidence.

            Here is a qualified Russian aviation expert that takes the exact opposite point of view from you:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjL4PMLBCSY

            LOL seriously – the fact that you claim honesty as a Russian national trait in light of events in Ukraine is utterly preposterous. Were you being ironic?

          • stranger

            CFL, I’ve watched the video of your “Russian expert” with not so Russian surname, Belarus’s probably, or the nationality which is prohibited to mention publically, but doesn’t matter.

            Listen, I’m not completely fool, a have a rather good technical education and inclination to technology, not aviation, but still.

            What this guy is chatting for more than an hour are completly near-silence empty speculations.

            Firstly he is making laugh on jet version and around. Great, no questions, but who told him those versions were Russians official ones. Even MoD just gave a hint with the plane in addition to Buk, but didn’t claim directly, should not have done so, maybe, not sure all data was properly analyzed by that time, whatever.

            Secondly he is trying to debunk AA version. But what he does??? He ignores all grounds of AA as if he didn’t really read their report and and picks up to picture schematic scaling! Then did you noticed? He took a pen to show in 3D model and discussed for 20 min how the shrapnel couldn’t have damaged the cabin. But did you see, he holds the pen at the completely different angle which was written at AA and which he cited and took for the demonstration! Watch the hands it is called. He ignores the major point and logic of AA.

            Then he just pointlessly chatting about nothing is known, they should have open classified documents, etc etc for half an hour.

            If he was given DSB report to analyze, so much new info, he could analyze, look for weak places, assume probabilities and dispersions, doubt every line, whatever. But he’s never done that, why?

            The last, did you see who was taking the interview?? The political fund and propagandistic center. Whom the center belongs to and funded by? Guessed? Our old acquaintance, who swore to revenge Putin and get to the power in Russia, the former oligarch of wild 90s – Michael Khodorkovskiy.

            I don’t know the motivation of Lukashevich, and I’m sure he is not related to Kh. But then he is used simply for propagandistic purposes.

            How it would be in English “морочить голову”? “To pull wool over smb eyes” from the dictionary, I don’t understand the idiom, simply, generally, just lie.

            And you believe everything which is just anti Russian w/o any rational thinking or evaluation. Why do you assume we are all stupid and we can be fed by low quality stuff?

          • stranger

            I just must clarify, the expert himself is respectful and knowledgeably guy. He maintains buran for ru project. He loves to debunk AA and don’t do the same with DSB, for whatever personal reason. But he is just used for propagandistic purposes here. I believe the Kh’s fund also cut his interview in peaces and mounted as served them.

          • CFL68

            He is a sensible and sober guy who immediately called BS on the hysterical Russian propaganda versions. His approach and logic are perfectly reasonable and his background is credible. He follows a normal path of reasoning and finds it absurd that Russia – and all the TV shows and so-called experts and reports were not following a normal path of reasoning based on the preponderance of evidence.

            Sure the interview is a bit too long – but the core of everything he says is valid – and obvious. The air-to-air missile shoot down was absurd and he explained why – not to mention the air-to-air cannon shoot down that so many Russian fools and conspiricists pushed for so long. One of the only reasonable Russian voices I have heard on the matter.

            Do you even wonder a little why Russia pushed these narratives for so long?

            As he said within a couple days of the tragedy, it is clear what happened. You know it. Everyone knows it. Yet Russia insists on lying.

          • stranger

            I just showed you with specific example from his speach concerning AA, that he a little bit swindled, with the incorrectly positioned pen, with ignoring main AA grounds and picking up on image scaling, etc. He is not honest, or at least not unbiased and not objective. That is obvious. I also pointed out the Kh’s propagandistic fund taking this interview probably cut it for themselves. You just believe everything which is anti Russia w/o validation.

          • CFL68

            OK lol there is nothing that can turn you from defending your Russia at all costs and in the face of all evidence and reason. Here is a perfectly reasonable guy with expertise in field and he immediately debunks stupid air-to-air shootdown. He will even grant that it was not a su25 but a real interceptor with larger missiles – it still would never have caused instant catastrophic destruction. Of course fighter jets would have been tracked on radar and now we know even Russia confirms it never happened. Russia’s latest version is that it indeed was a buk – just not their buk lol. For some reason the Ukrainian integrated defense system would target an east bound airliner in a busy flight corridor when their were no examples of hostile aviation threats, etc., etc.

            The Russian nonsense will never end and just gets thicker and more toxic.

            I think Russian obstruction should compound the penalties for these crimes. Let justice plod forward…

            PS – he is part of political opposition to Putin so either he is lying to make Putin look bad, or he is in opposition because Putin is a liar/thug and he thinks Russia should be on a different path so he is explaining the truth as a professional.

          • stranger

            CFL, understand pls a simple thing. I don’t care who he is, is he a honored Avis constructor or a student, what language he speaks, what country he is from, if he loves Putin or hates Putin.
            If he is not honest and trying to deceive us by omitting key details which you never know if previously didn’t read AA report, that is unacceptable.
            Nothing would convince you that you must think with your own head and not rely on the experience of an ‘expert’, or his merits, when you obviously are being deceived for whatever reason.

          • CFL68

            Why do your toxic lies and cynicism still surprise me? I guess its because I expect that there is always some degree of decency in a human. Apparently not.

            “I don’t care who he is”

            Liar – your first response was to discredit him personally based on nationality and ethnicity. Why would that even enter into the discussion? And what do you mean specifically? What are you prohibited from mentioning? Don’t be shy… Do tell us. And on and on from there. You forget who first proposed that absurd air-to-air version and in what disgusting context? Russian generals claiming the debris cloud was likely a Ukrainian jet due to lack of transponder… Imagine?!? We know now that they knew all along there were no Ukrainian planes that could have done it. Any sensible person knew it was a debris cloud (appeared in same spot of mh17 after destruction, stationary, disappeared after 4 mins). Yet they went on TV and made this claim officially in a grand show for the duped Russian people. It was the primary issue of debate for years and only just changed a few months ago with AA report in October. Why lie for so long and mislead?

            So sorry you don’t like Lukashevich’s casual chat with pens and pencils and fingers and angles. Is that all you have? You discredit his easy debunking of the theories that dominated Russian media for 2 years? Yet you say nothing of the massive and murderous lies of Russian generals and entire media and engineering establishment of Russia for >2 years.

            Knowing they already lied to you why would you take the AA report as anything but a political manouver – especially considering its timing? There are so many layers of absurdity you would have to accept to take AA’s word that Ukraine did it – and disregard the obvious and already admitted scenario that rebels did it accidentally. Not to mention that the JIT would be in a conspiracy to lie and protect the people who killed its citizens, all to blame innocent Russia. None of this strikes you as absurd and you believe their version until it gets debunked and you believe the next version on and on until in the final result – you will finally say ‘so what if Russia did it.’

            Russia has lost its soul for sure. Fooo!

            Hopefully this gets to criminal court and the perps and those who lied to cover the crime should definitely face the harshest possible punishments. Russia is earning some seriously bad karma…

          • stranger

            Are you stupid you need to explain twice? The nationality which is never mentioned is Jews. I have never had no any problems with Jews, i studied with them, worked with them, never any issues. That was a kind of joke, because you said he is a Russian expert while his surname doesn’t sound like Russian, while I didn’t looked for his bio, whatever, I said it doesn’t ever any matter.

            I respect this person a lot if you read buran dot ru which he sustains and multiple Avia-space projects he participated in. I recognize and appreciate his experience.

            Nevertheless I canno help to note that he is personally biased what concerns AA for unknown reason. Many things he is saying including the predifiened launch position makes a lot of sense. But he doesn’t support that with dry neutral scientific technical considerations, excepts the misspositioned pen. He said clearly let take their angles 20 to horizon, 70 to the course, he held the pen about 70/70 and passionaly was proving that is not possible, no any other technical details from him AT ALL. You are an avia space constructor, analyze it seriously, not just chatting for general topics.
            I’m talking about this particular video, if you want to discuss MoD I would be glad to discuss.
            “Russia has lost its soul for sure”
            Have you ever had one?

          • stranger

            I’m responsible for my self and dont represent Russia. In the same way I don’t care about rumors about su25 and what authors invented what. It seemed hardly from the very beginning and the first preliminary Dutch report clearly proved it was a heavy missile. Dutches have another weak place, they failed to accurately identify the detonation point and hence the launch position. IMHO again based on reading report with TNO appendix. Dutches also mispresented AA data so that is seemed AA agreed with their launch position, which was absolutely not true and their diagram with notes in small font deceiving. They used everything AA could provide them and disrespectfully just denied AA questions w/o proper diligence. Again, I don’t care who tells what and what rumors are circulating and I DONT represent all Russia.

          • stranger

            There was one more extremely important problem with Dutch report. The fuselage coverage at the reconstruction was extremely poor in the missile impact point, so the just missed the most important material to analyze. Why?

            Were rebels identified and stolen those fragments, were they stolen in Kiev the debris were delivered through, by Dutchs to adjust the investigation to the preliminary shown by US launch position, or may be just not found because damaged most and fell by own tragectory. A great deal of debris was just not found… nevetherless Dutches were as self confident as hell at their conference and softly deflected any critical questions.

            Even though DSB subcontractor TNO who modeled the detonation point honestly described the limitation of the method, pointed out exactly the fact most of fragments are absent at the most important for investigation places, and recommended what do you think? Exactly what AA did – analyze the particle impact INSIDE the fuselage also – what AA later officially requested DSB and what DSB denied with concise and insulting formulation: particles change their direction on penetration so we are not going to analyze INTERNAL damage pattern at all.

            So the report leaves some doubts and questions. Excellent material for our Russian expert Lukashevich to analyze. Would he? You know he will never do. That is against his political principles. And physics, who care physics, politics is more important.

            Im not saying DSB is not right, just it should have been in more trusty, collaborative and more open way maybe. And as Lukashevich pointed out, there should have been probabilities, dispersions and errors specified, otherwise,well…

          • stranger

            First of all they could have continue collecting debris at the crash site! Second seriously analyze AA experiment and arguments of the inner frame damage, and specify errors of course. Otherwise the report leaves the impression of some kind of incompleteness.

      • stranger

        Finally you got it! When Bcats showed us a guy from Syrian terrorists telling that all Russia, I saw it, vzzzz, boom, Russia bombed i swear. And Bcats believed his every word and printed an article on that. Why weren’t you concerned? Dbl standards?

        The path in google map is great.

        Reply
        • Andrea

          I’ll repute a valid proof the Vk page on which that guy is supposed to have uploaded the original video!
          I’ll repute a proof the date we see on the original video he has if the’s the “owner” of that video!

          I mean… if you bother filming such a video (a plushy set, perfect editing with sound and cool shots, authorizations to film in a public places, interviews with important witnesses, high ranked soldiers, even cosmonauts! …) why can’t you satisfy any of the very simple points above?

          I never drew a conclusion from a random guy swearing anything in front of a camera, neither if he was a little Syrian orphan neither if he is a witness from Ukraine! If there are images/videos reliably documenting a fact i’d rather stick with those!

          Reply
          • stranger

            That resembles the “evidences” bicats provide from Syria, and all mainstream mass media use w/o a doubt when covering Syrian news, doesn’t it?

  6. Frankie Goes to Bollywood

    Russians, don’t get confused:

    In Abkhazia and Ossetia, you were for the local militia(*).
    In Chechnya and Syria, you were against them.
    And in the Dumbass – you are instead of them.

    (*) Local militia — “Popochlentsy” (Rus.)

    Reply
    • stranger

      “Popochlentsy” – really? You are “popo-chlenets” and “Dumbass” yourself. 🙂
      A short memo for you too:
      In Donbas-terrorists
      In Syria-noble moderate opposition
      In Ukraine-foreign occupation after overthrown president
      In Yemen-recovering of constitutional order by neighbor friendly countries after the overthrown president
      Please don’t confuse 🙂

      Reply
  7. Dude

    CFL68 – February 18, 2017
    Russia has lost its soul for sure. Fooo!
    ===
    Mwahaha! It is not possible to lose something one never had! 🙂
    The whole confabulation about “russian soul” is a primitive tribalistic self-gloating of rushka-orks 🙂

    Never heard about any other nations claiming to have an exceptional “soul”.
    Wait, no…. I heard about a “Jamaica soul”!

    Perhaps both confabulations are caused by heavy consumption of drugs (alcohol, weed) etc? hehehe

    Reply
    • stranger

      The typical example sh.tty Ukrainian character. You were the richest soviet rupublic, but you f.cked up everything and now is the poorest country from all others. All because you nasty character. You are just unable to work together. For centuries you betrayed your allies and sold themselves to the their enemies. Poland, Swedes, Russia. No you betrayed Russia and sold to US, later you will easily switch back, when it serves you. So you are still the same…

      Reply

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