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Identifying Khmuryi, the Major General Linked to the Downing of MH17

February 15, 2017

By Daniel Romein

Translations: Русский

This article was collaboratively researched and written by the Bellingcat  MH17 Investigation Team.

On 18 July 2014, the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) published several tapped telephone conversations in relation to the July 17 downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 (MH17). Most of these conversations, recorded on the day of the downing, are between an officer identified as ‘Khmuryi’ (’Gloomy’ or ‘Grumpy’) and other separatist officers or soldiers of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic. The SBU identified ‘Khmuryi’ as ‘Sergey Nikolaevich Petrovsky’, a Russian GRU officer, but it took some time before this was covered in-depth by either Western or Russian-language media.

On 1 April 2015, the Dutch news organizations NRC, NOS and De Telegraaf wrote on Khmuryi after the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) published a video that included the tapped phone conversations, but audible censoring of the identities of the parties in the call. However, on 18 September 2014, Russian-language media site PolitRussia published an article and a video about ‘Khmuryi’, a DNR officer named Sergey Petrovsky, presenting a photograph and a video interview. This publication is based on a video from 27 June 2014 showing an interview with a member of the so-called Donbas People’s Militia with the call sign ‘Khmuryi’. However, that video does not provide the full name of the commander. As this article will show, the man interviewed who reportedly fought in Slavyansk and is from Moscow is almost certainly not the same “Khmuryi” from the intercepted telephone conversation. Another video, titled ‘Sergey Nikolaevich Petrovsky (call sign Khmuryi, Bad soldier)’ and uploaded 2 October 2014, shows a video message of a masked man, who according to the video title is Sergey Petrovsky. However, the video was previously uploaded on 12 June 2014, entitled ‘Spetsnaz of Strelkov,’ and this man seems to be a different person than the bearded man in the 27 June 2014 video, as his voice differs.

Left: Screenshot of the 18 July 2014 SBU video, showing the name ‘Khmuryi’ and his full name ‘Sergey Nikolaevich Petrovsky’. Middle: publication of PolitRussia from 18 September 2014, showing a bearded man, supposed to be Sergey Petrovsky. Right: A masked man, visible in a 2 October 2014 video, titled “Sergey Nikolaevich Petrvosky (callsign ‘Khmuryi’, Bad Soldier)”. Below: Video from the JIT showing several conversations between Khmuryi and separatists.

On 30 November 2014, an interview with General Sergey Nikolaevich Petrovsky was published on the Russian news site Politikus, making clear that he was then the head of the Main Intelligence Directorate (GRU) of the Donetsk People’s Republic and that his military career started in the Soviet army in 1984, when he participated in the war in Afghanistan. In the 90s, he took part in wars in North Ossetia and Chechnya, where he met Igor ‘Strelkov’ Girkin, who was the Minister of Defence of the Donetsk People’s Republic in 2014. In another interview, published 25 December 2014 on ultranationalist Russian news site Zavtra, he describes himself as Major General Sergey Petrovsky, born in 1962 in the Donetsk region. It is unclear if he achieved the rank of major general in the Russian Federation or the self-proclaimed separatist republic. He also described having over 30 years of service in the Soviet and Russian armies.  An earlier interview with ‘Khmuryi’, then a colonel, was published in 2003 on the Russian news site Izvestia, as mentioned in a 2016 publication on a blog named Globalized.  This blog, but also another blog on 28 November 2014, describes that a person who calls himself ‘Plokhoy Soldat’ (‘Bad Soldier’), with an avatar saying ‘Khmuryi’, frequently posted on a forum of the website Antikvariat, a website about history, military relics, and other topics, and where Igor ‘Strelkov’ Girkin also regularly posted messages about the war in Ukraine. In this forum, he wrote on 19 July 2014 that he is Colonel Sergey Nikolaevich Petrovsky, Deputy Minister of Defence of the Donetsk People’s Republic for guards reconnaissance.

It is because of Igor Girkin’s e-mail account that was hacked in May 2014 that the true identity of Sergey Petrovsky, which is not his real name, came to light. Several e-mails from Girkin’s e-mail account were published, among them an e-mail sent on 28 April 2014 from Sergey Dubinsky with e-mail address, writing “Igor, this is Zubr [European bison], hi, do you still remember me??” This name and e-mail address lead to a social media profile that makes clear that Dubinsky was born on 9 August 1962 and lived in Donetsk, Ukraine.  It’s noteworthy to mention that this year of birth (1962) differs from SBU’s claim he was born in 1964. The e-mail address also leads to a forum on a website about the 181st Motorized Infantry Regiment, that belonged to the 108th Motorized Infantry Division, which was involved in the Afghan war from 1979 to 1989. In the forum, after a list of names of soldiers and the years they served, a guest introduces himself on 18 July 2010 as ‘Karakhan’ and Sergey Dubinsky, serving from 1985 to 1987, currently living in Donetsk, Ukraine. In 2011 he registered himself as user ‘Karakhan’, Sergey Dubinsky, born on 9 August 1962, and uploaded a photograph of himself in a military uniform, showing the rank of Colonel. One of his fellow veterans soon after uploaded several photographs of him as well, and in 2016 another fellow veteran uploaded a larger version of the photograph of Sergey Dubinsky in uniform and described him as ‘Petrovsky, Dvorkovskiy, Khmuryi, Zubr [European bison], Bison and our Karakhan’ and as ‘Khmuryi in DNR (Donetsk People’s Republic)’ in now-deleted posts on the forum. A video in the forum and a YouTube video show the same photograph of Sergey Dubinsky in a military uniform.

Top left: Khmuryi’s avatar on the Antikvariat forum; down left: photograph of Sergey Dubinsky in Afghanistan from his social media profile on ‘Moi Mir’ (My World); right: photograph of Sergey Dubinsky in a colonel uniform, uploaded in 2011.

The photograph of Sergey Dubinsky in uniform seems to have been edited (for example, a fragment of the medal ‘Order for Merit to the Fatherland’ on his tie seems to be missing), though the number of medals fit with a colonel and a military career since 1984. However, most of the medals on his uniform are from the Soviet era, such as the ‘Order of the Red Star’, ‘Order for Service to the Motherland in the Armed Forces of the USSR’, the medal ‘Veteran of the Armed Forces of the USSR’, all three medals ‘For Impeccable Service’ and a jubilee medal ’70 Years of the USSR Armed Forces’. The medals ‘Veteran of the Armed Forces of the USSR’ were only awarded to people who served in the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union for 25 years or more and the medals ‘For Impeccable Service’ were awarded to people who served 10, 15 and 20 years in the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union, so with a military career that started in 1984 it’s impossible for him to have these medals, as the Soviet Union ceased to exist in 1991.  Two medals on the bottom right are medals for veterans of the Afghan war: the badge for ‘Soldiers-Internationalists’ and the medal ‘From the Grateful Afghan People’. Only the two medals ‘Order of Courage’ up left could have been awarded during his service in the Russian army. The medal up right seems to be the jubilee medal ‘50 Years of Victory in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945’, a medal that was awarded in 1993, according to another source, only to veterans of the 2nd World War and former underage prisoners of concentration camps. Since Dubinsky was born in 1962, he could not belong to these two categories.

Articles about the Donetsk People’s Republic published his photograph on 10 August 2015, 14 September 2015 and 12 November 2015, but only on 19 November 2016 the link to MH17 was made on a website about Donetsk. Data and photographs of Sergey Dubinsky were published on the website of ‘Mirotvorets’ (‘Peacemaker’), an organization that gathers personal information largely from open sources on Russians, separatists, and alleged collaborators related to the war in the Donbas. On 7 February 2017, an open source research collective InformNapalm published additional information about Sergey Dubinsky and the exact location of his current residence: ulitsa Molodozhnaya 4B, Bolshoy Log, Rostov Oblast in Russia.

Bellingcat found another social media profile of Sergey Nikolaevich Dubinsky, with information indicating that this user was born on 9 August 1962, and living in Donetsk, Ukraine, and in Rostov-on-Don, Russia. According to the photographs from this profile, Dubinsky and his family were living in Russia in 2010, but apparently lived in Ukraine in the summer of 2011. According to an openly accessible traffic police database of Rostov-on-Don, Sergey Nikolaevich Dubinsky, born on 9 August 1962, lived in Stepnoy in an undefined street house number 1, apartment 117, and had three different cars registered on his name between 1998 and 2004. Stepnoy in the Rostov Oblast is a military village, where the 22nd Spetsnaz Brigade (literally translated as the 22th Separate Brigade for Special Purposes), or military unit 11659 is located, a military unit that is part of the ‘GRU’, the Main Intelligence Directorate.

Photographs in his album prove that he was in Donetsk, Ukraine in the autumn and December of 2014. On the autumn 2014 photograph Dubinsky is visible next to Russian actor Mikhail Porechenkov, who visited Donetsk on 30 October 2014. In the December 2014 photograph, Russian actor Ivan Okhlobystin, who is banned from Ukraine because of his support to pro-Russian separatists, and his wife Oksana Arbuzova are visible. He visited the Donbas area in late November 2014 and Donetsk on 30 November 2014, where he seems to have met Igor ‘Strelkov’ Girkin and claims to have received a watch for Christmas from ‘Khmuryi’, General Major Sergey Nikolaevich Petrovsky.

Sergey Dubinsky (right) with Mikhail Porechenkov (left) in Donetsk, Ukraine, autumn 2014, photograph uploaded 15 October 2016.

Sergey Dubinsky (middle) in Donetsk, Ukraine, in December 2014, photograph uploaded 15 October 2016. Left: Ivan Okhlobystin, Right: Ivan’s wife Oksana Arbuzova.

The December 2014 photograph shows Sergey Dubinsky in what appears to be a Russian military uniform with the rank major general, quite comparable to, for example, the 2015 uniform of Russia’s Defense Ministry Spokesperson Major General Igor Konashenkov. Dubinsky seems to wear a shoulder patch of either ‘Spetsnaz GRU’, the special forces of the Russian Main Intelligence Directorate, or the Russian Ground Forces, though he reportedly resigned from the Russian Armed Forces in April 2014.

It seems that Dubinsky left Donetsk in early 2015 and was even denied entry to the Donetsk People’s Republic because of extracting money from businessmen. A decree of the Russian Federation of 17 April 2015 (which has been archived) sought to revoke money from Sergey Dubinsky, and described how he received a pension for his service in several military units. The first unit named is military unit 61019, a unit that was very likely disbanded quite some time ago, as no information is available on it online. The second unit mentioned is the aforementioned military unit 11659, or the 22nd Spetsnaz Brigade, and the third unit mentioned is military unit 51019, or the 116th Separate Special Purpose Radio Unit, located in Stepnoy.

Photographs uploaded in the summer of 2016 show Dubinsky’s new house, which was geolocated to the same location of the InformNapalm article: ulitsa Molodozhnaya in Bolshoy Log, Rostov Oblast in Russia. Only the house number is not clear, as Google and Yandex maps do not specify house numbers for all the houses in that street, but likely the house number is 4a, rather than 4b. The view in the photograph corresponds to the view behind the house on Google Streetview. Another photograph shows Dubinsky in a Canadian-produced vehicle, a Can-Am Commander XT, worth almost $15,000 when purchased new.

The new house of Sergey Dubinsky, where he (and his family) very likely live since 2015, photograph uploaded 8 August 2016.

Sergey Dubinsky sitting in a Can-Am Commander XT, likely in front of his house, photograph uploaded 4 August 2016.

Bellingcat’s conclusion is that the man whose telephone was tapped by the Ukrainian Security Service on 17 July 2014, assuming the SBU correctly identified his voice and/or knew that the intercepted telephone number belonged to him and was thus involved in the transport of the Buk missile launcher that downed MH17 on the same date, is named Sergey Nikolaevich Dubinsky, nicknamed ‘Khmuryi’. Dubinsky is a Russian war veteran and was a colonel in July 2014, fought in the Soviet-Afghan war and later in Chechnya, and later served in the 22nd Spetsnaz Brigade, a unit connected to the ‘GRU’, the Main Intelligence Directorate. This man does not appear to be the same person as the bearded man, who likely coincidentally also used the call sign ‘Khmuryi’ in a June 2014 interview; Dubinsky wrote in the Antikvariat forum on 2 July 2014 that he had been confused with someone else “from Slavyansk.” However, Dubinsky may be the same person as the masked man in an October 2014 video titled ‘Sergey Nikolaevich Petrovsky (call sign Khmuryi, Bad Soldier)’, previously uploaded on 12 June 2014 as ‘Spetsnaz of Strelkov’. Dubinsky wrote in the same post of 2 July 2014 on the Antikvariat forum that he is not a man seen in the media, with one exception, just as he read in the text of the 12 June 2014 video.

Sergey Dubinsky was granted the higher rank of major general in the Donetsk People’s Republic in, apparently, August 2014, shortly after the downing of MH17, and later relocated to the Russian Federation after being expelled from Donetsk for alleged financial crimes. Nowadays Dubinsky lives a fairly luxurious life for Russian standards, in a quiet village, spending time with his family and enjoying rides in an expensive recreational vehicle.

Daniel Romein

Daniel Romein is an IT-specialist and started in 2014 as open source investigator focused on the MH17 case and the conflict in Ukraine. Co-winner of the 2019 European Press Prize (Investigative Reporting Award).

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  1. stranger

    CFL is silent today. Why? Isn’t because it’s Saturday and his NAT0 troll farm is closed and he is not paid for overtime? Let’s all together ask his NAT0 bosses to increase his salary. He also will be kinder and will not insult people in vain.

    • Mad Dog

      You lost me with this little gem: It ruined Russian plans to unite major 3 countries and other republic into the single trade union wher ideally everybody would win.
      Bwa ha ha, yeah, just like people in the rest of Russia really do so well compared to Moscovites. Tell me that fairy tale again. Only a very few win with Putin and they all drive Range Rovers and Porsches or a Bentley or two….Kind of like the former prez of Ukraine with his golden faucets.

      • Mr.Bushkin

        You seem rather to describe Yeltsins rule in Russia, when oligarchs interferred directly with state affairs during their private wars and ressources were not under control of the state. That’s something, Ukraine still has to overcome.

        The trade union you are speaking about was all the time since the end of USSR the so called “Customs Union” with Ukraine now changing into the EU trade zone.

        • CFL68

          Its really not so different now is it? Maybe by degrees? Every third car speeding down Rublyovka or Kutuzovskaya is still a shining range rover or merc. But now, instead of being corrupt oligarchs on the way to their dachas. it is chinovniki and those who feed off of them – and the oligarchs staff. The oligarchs themselves are usually off living in much nicer places.

          Now go 50 km outside of Moscow or St. Petersburg, puff out your chest, and tell us how backward and corrupt the Ukrainians are! LOL

          So much noise and drama and empty propaganda slogans to blow smoke and distract from basic issue of illegal Russian aggression against Ukraine.

          • stranger

            There are no so many chinovnikov. Rublevka is populated by popular artists, buisnesmen who make money from the air like at financial services of something, bankers etc etc.
            People in Moscow live better since all money are flowing through Moscow. But Peter for example not so bad also. The towns around Moscow started to recover, Kostroma for example. The tourists infrastracture appear around Moscow.

            Compared to 90s most of the people started to live much better. In Moscow for example in 90s the good wages of a software developer were like $500, by 2010 it raised already to 3,500-4000, after the recent crisis and ruble drop it stabiliazed at somewhere at 3,000-3,500 usd per month taking into account 2 times weaker rubble than before the Ukrainian mess.

            Oligarchs in 90s as you remember ruled the country instead of the government. That is the worst when the big bandid capital interferes with politics. Now they are more shy.

            So CFL, you are trying to boldly deceive us against 🙂

          • CFL68

            Not deceiving anyone and glad Russian’s are living better. I have many friends and family there.

            I just found your comparison to Norway a bit crazy on many levels. Putin has had the luxury of historically high oil prices for 10-25 years. Has he truly reformed economy to modern standards? Norway?!?! lol

            But good for Russia. Now I wish it would get out of Ukraine and pay for everything it broke in its illegal aggression. Let Ukraine start its long road towards reform and towards ‘Norway.’

          • stranger

            “I just found your comparison to Norway a bit crazy on many levels.”
            Did I? Norway also depends on oil, but is a tiny country.

            “Putin has had the luxury of historically high oil prices for 10-25 years. Has he truly reformed economy to modern standards?”
            Remember how Russia tried to by Opel and how much noise raised in western media that we should not give our technology to them? Putin (maybe not exactly he personally) has done a lot to convert Russia to a more safe, more stable and more wealthy place. The modernization of economy is not as simple probably. First of all don’t forget it is wild capitalism in Russia, most of the factories are private. As long as stock market speculations and pumping out oil is easier and more beneficial for them, they will not invest into costly and risky modernization. If you feed economy with more money you receive an inflation and or more leaks abroad. So that is not something easy to do.

            “But good for Russia. Now I wish it would get out of Ukraine and pay for everything it broke in its illegal aggression. Let Ukraine start its long road towards reform and towards ‘Norway.’”
            I also hope Ukraine will implement Minsk and stop killing own citizens because they don’t want to be with this new nationalistic state. But hardly Ukraine will become a Norway, because Norway live on oil export. And all reforms will unfoturnatelly resisted by oligarch Russian style 90′ and by corrupt government. Having grabbed IMF loans Ukraine is going to delayed bankruptcy. Unfoturnatelly. Ukraine cannot go by without Russia. While their new US “friend” never spends money in vain w/o out interest which costs much more. Wish them all the best thought.

          • CFL68

            Comparing Russia to Norway is ridiculous – yes both are cold and are inhabited by people and various creatures. But in terms of culture, economy, politics, corruption, aggression, etc., they are absolutely different.

            And you go on and on about Ukraine killing its own people but you forget that it is Russian killers and tanks and buks that have invaded and already captured Crimea, and thousands of fighters and weapons are in Donbass making war.

            If you want to talk about ‘killing your own people’ look at Russia filling mass graves and utterly smashing cities and towns in Chechnya – these things really happened. Or any other time in history for that matter. As I said before – your deliberate denial of Russia as the catalyst for war in Donbass only fuels contempt (don’t bring up internal political disputes as a cause for war as they still exist everywhere in Ukraine yet there is no war).

            None of your droning responses excuses deliberate Russian aggression and that is what made this a war. The war will only end when Russia acknowledges this and pulls out and pays reparations. You say this will never happen. So welcome to your future. Contempt and disgust for Russia will only grow.

            Or of course Ukraine could surrender Donbass and await next round of aggression to capture/destabilize all of eastern and southern Ukraine.

            Your ‘my country right or wrong’ goes beyond patriotism. But its all subjective of course. Nationalist? Hypernationalist? Patriot? Call yourself whatever you want. If/when Ukrainians return the favor to Russians involved in this aggression don’t expect the world to see anything else but justice and shrug their shoulders.

          • stranger

            Did I compare Russia with Norway? The similarity is that both countries earn most of income on oil trading. Why don’t you call Norway to modernize and forget about trading raw resources?

            You consider Crimea and Donbas as territories. That is your major mistake. That is people, who have own opinion who are tired to fight with Ukraine and want just have nothing to do with this Ukraine not the Ukraine they knew before. That’s why Ukraine never ever tell about the altitude of people in Crimea but just insists to return this territory, with or w/o people, that why they don’t care how many civilian “separatists” would die.
            Chechnya is different, Chenchnya is related to Islamic terrorism all the world recognized only recently. The separatists at Ukrainian east has never ever made any teracts. Chechens and supporting them Islamic nations preaching extreme jhikhad killed thouthands of people.
            I’m not a nationalist. You can call me whatever you want but that will stay just you empty personal insult and nothing more.

          • CFL68

            Yes – I consider Crimea and Donbass to be parts of Ukraine. I think it violated Ukraine’s sovereignty when Russia sent its military and paramilitary units to use lethal force to rewrite borders and foment war.

            But you may have touched upon something. Perhaps I’m not the only one who lacks this mythical hypernationalistic view of ‘greater Rus’? Maybe its just a bogus excuse for Russian aggression. Look up Russification of Ukraine that started hundreds of years ago. But there is no need for debate. Its pretty well established that Ukraine is a country with borders and we know what those borders are. Russian military and paramilitary units crossing into Ukraine to ‘debate’ the issue discredit their legal argument. Alas fighting is the only recourse for Ukraine to defend itself since Russia has ignored 400 years of international law.

            As for Chechens, they were not radicals of any sort in the beginning when they tried for independence. Dudayev? Really? As Russia ground tens of thousands of civilians it claimed as its own citizens to bloody pulp (who really were not Russian and were different in everything from history and language and culture and religion) the conflict did radicalize elements of the population and create a context that could be exploited by international jihadists. Once you destroy people and families with ultra-violence – what right do you have to expect your opponent to follow your rules?

            Once again Russia follows logic of burning down the neighbor’s house, then blaming the owners that the roof is no good… You are the real funny guy going around the smoldering village trying to convince all the victims that Russia is a good neighbor…

          • stranger

            Just BS of yours as usual. Crimeans voted at a referendum, we know that they appeal to Russia and don’t share nationalistic Ukrainian course. Referendums is democracy instruments. Why do you deny their rights?

            You blame Russia for Chechnya but justify Ukraine in Donbas. Isn’t here a great deal of hypocracy? How funny is that you justify Chechen terrorism but cannot dare to tell even such a word for the same nature terrorism in Europe and States. Try, don’t be a coward, tell that twin towers were justified by poor muslims mistreated in Saudi, that Paris attacks were justified, that crimes in EU are justified by poor refugees and it’s just their culture to attack women dressed not by their canons. Doesn’t it confirm your ultra-hypocracytism? As for Chechnya pls refresh how the second Chechen war started. Chechnya was given independence until then.
            All your other evil insinuations about Russia is just blatant, bold lie as usual. Are you sure you are not ukrainian btw? Very typical specific attitude to the things.

          • CFL68

            Did Russia send troops before or after referendum? I think there really was a legitimate demographic case to be made in Crimea – but Russia should not have invaded and used lethal force.

            And Donbass? Little green men/tanks/buks before or after a pristine Russian style election? Alas no demographic case here. Just cynical war from Russia and the people of Russia to hurt the people of Ukraine and their bid for independence.

            And yes Chechnya is a wholly distinct nation with huge demographic/cultural/historical claims to independence. Russia smashed entire cities and towns full of civilians into bloody pulp and bulldozed into mass graves. This really happened. Russia lies and says this happened in Ukraine but it never did.

            As for Donbass – we have been through it – no demographic or any other claims. Just hypernaitonalist hyperbole by a fraction of a minority who were literally led by Russians and given Russian soldiers and weapons to make war. It is absolutely different.

            And debunking your claim about how Chechens (and foreign radical jihadists) came to fight in Chechnya is not the same as supporting terrorism. I was simply explaining the chain of events that led to the radicalization of the fighters after they had been crushed with nothing to lose.

            As for twin towers, a handful of ultra radicals were upset about US troops on Saudi territory, or some other such nonsense and decided to stage a mass casualty attack against the US. It was not anything like Chechnya declaring and fighting for independence you depraved pig.

            As for your other examples I cannot see the relation at all. Criminals are criminals and should be treated as such.

            All your BS does is create more contempt. You destroy any possibility for common ground with cynical lies and aggression. So what is left for Russia’s neighbors to do? Wait their turn? Seek protection? Submit? Disengage and contain? They are all thinking hard about next steps and taking decisions that will have far reaching effect.

          • stranger

            “Look up Russification of Ukraine that started hundreds of years ago. ”
            And you recall how Ukraine appeared. After Kievian Rus was devastated by Mongols, Ukraine was occupied by Poles. South east and Crimea ware always Turkish. Before Russification, there was Ukrainization(!) by soviets. Russian served as language of international communication in Russian Empire and USSR. Like English at the larger scale now. USSR was very careful with national identities of soviet republics. But that concerned Turkmens, Georgians, Azery, who are very authentic. But Ukrainians especially eastern and partially Kiev are just same Russians, what a separate national identity? The authentic Ukrainians can be found maybe at the west who lived under Polish occupation for too long and even have Catholic religion while all Ukraine has Orthodox Church, and somewhere is rural areas, who are just ignorant and never learned russian. 90% of all Ukrainians speak excellent fluent Russian even if they don’t want to show it sometimes. Ukrainians especially malorosses from the south east have always considered like greater Russians.
            You also always forget Russian involvement started from US sponsored coup when all agreements with Russia were suddenly broke up w/o a notice in an illegal and dirty way.

          • stranger

            “As for twin towers, a handful of ultra radicals were upset about US troops on Saudi territory, or some other such nonsense and decided to stage a mass casualty attack against the US. It was not anything like Chechnya declaring and fighting for independence you depraved pig.”

            Have you completely lost your watery brains? Saudi were named by US as related to one or more suicide pilot for twin towers. No any US troops in Saudi, the greates US ally in ME, but a lot in other ME, Saudi and Quatar still play with extream international Islamism from time to time.
            Chechnya was independent after Khasa Viurt peace treaty and became a nest for international jikhadists wishing to establish Shariat all over Muslim Russia and near-east regions.
            And you must be Ukrainian since mention pigs, swine lard is in the greatest national cuisine.

          • CFL68

            So you are claiming that 9/11 was an attack by Saudi Arabia against the US?

            And you are also claiming that the US had no bases in Saudi Arabia? We had many thousands of troops and equipment, planes. etc., after first gulf war and only pulled them in 2003.

            Please continue parading your ignorance as if it somehow justifies Russian aggression against Ukraine.

          • stranger

            “I was simply explaining the chain of events that led to the radicalization of the fighters after they had been crushed with nothing to lose.”
            Again, explain Twin Towers, Paris attacks, Madrid trains etc with your logic, that poor Muslims were so upset by evil white infidels colonists who don’t bow to Allah, and don’t want to live under Shariat, that they had no any other choice. That is the same as Islamic (note, not just Chechen) terrorism in Russia.

            “All your BS does is create more contempt. You destroy any possibility for common ground with cynical lies and aggression.”
            You are just projecting. What common ground do your government try to find with Russia? Just threatening by military force, just flows of lies, dirt and Russophobic propaganda. You should give a hand a friendship since you started it and Russia has no problems with it.

            “So what is left for Russia’s neighbors to do? Wait their turn? Seek protection? Submit? Disengage and contain? They are all thinking hard about next steps and taking decisions that will have far reaching effect.”
            How hypocritical, first your propagandistic resource work in Russian neighbors to incite people against Russia and Russians (remember Nullands 5bil?), then you sponsor a coup supporting a minority of anti Russian nationalists and bring them into the power, then support the new government and press Europe to recognize it as a legitimate, then you shot propagandistic deceiving documentaries and Hollywood movies presenting a wrong perverted your own vision of those events built completely on lie, just extending your propaganda to your own population. And then you are cynically saying what can neighbors to do to defend from Russia or even fight Russia???

            Almost everything you are saying about Russia is a complete cynical BS or perversion and misinterpretation of facts. I’m from Russia, you have nothing to do with Russia (at least from what you are saying). And you are trying to f..king teach me what Russia really is?!

          • CFL68

            Whatever bub. You brought up 9/11 as some strange connection to Chechnya as an excuse for Russia murdering tens of thousands of Chechens, and dumping them into mass graves. All so they could be ‘independent’ as you say. Veeeery independent.

            There is no war in Ukraine except where Russia made war. Russia continues to lie and kill and expects the hand of friendship. Keep dreaming.

            I’m really losing interest in responding to your long debunked propaganda memes about Nuland and how everything is the fault of the US. Its pathetic. Russia has gone to the trouble to send troops/tanks/grads/buks and thousands upon thousands of killers and what must be by now hundreds of millions of dollars. You could at least be proud of your work instead of continuing to lie.

            The deception alone makes it pretty clear who is right and who is wrong.

            Sorry that Ukrainians aren’t perfect. That is still a weak excuse for sending millions of people into war and bloodshed.

          • stranger

            “You brought up 9/11 as some strange connection to Chechnya as an excuse for Russia murdering tens of thousands of Chechens”

            The connection is the Islamic terrorism, the problem common for all of us. As you probably know Chechnya was independent after Russia failed to take Grozny in the first Chechen war. The Second Chechen war started from the international and Chechen jikhadists attempt to invade Russian Muslim areas and establish the rule of Shariat, following by terrible inhuman terracts in Moscow and other Russia’s cities. All the time between the two wars was filled with human kidnappings for ransom, Bassaev’s bloody raid to Russian maternity hospital etc.

            That is not ever close to what is going on on the east of Ukraine and Crimea. Ukraine has never known what a terroristic war is. The rebels are not terrorists.

            How would you think Chechnya would be living if became fully independent, no subsidies from the center, all resources and good only by international prices? It would become poorer then Ukraine, the Islamic radicalization would start again, incursions to neighbors, kidnapping, probably, I don’t know, but know their life style would drop significantly. Caucasians are very hot and easy-flammable people.

            But they don’t want independence afaik, they migrate to Moscow, they wear t shirt “Russia” and associate themselves to Russia. Don’t know the majority of Chechens or not. If you saw how Grozny was rebuilt recently by the center subsidies, rare provincial Russian city can brag that.

            “There is no war in Ukraine except where Russia made war. Russia continues to lie and kill and expects the hand of friendship. Keep dreaming.”

            We discussed hundreds of times I cannot repeat. Ukrainian government is killing own eastern Ukrainians who don’t welcome new anti Russian nationalistic course supported by US, and especially cannot forgive Ukraine to kill them from heavy weapon. The know exactly who kills them – ask them do they blame Russia or Ukraine? Ask local, w/o inventing own fantasies.

            Some limited Russian support exists. But Ukraine lies that fight only with Russia, because if it admits a civil war for a second they wouldn’t have international support and IMF money, but they have never ever announced a war to Russia or recognized fighting Russia formally and officially.

            As for the hand of friendship, up to you, that is your responsibility. Russia is always open and ready for the friendship. If you don’t want and want to fight, we will fight. But note, that is you choice.

            “I’m really losing interest in responding to your long debunked propaganda memes about Nuland and how everything is the fault of the US. Its pathetic.”
            You are just ignoring the facts known from public sources. No wonder for such a lier as yourself.

            “You could at least be proud of your work instead of continuing to lie.”
            What should I be proud of?? A terrible bloody mess everybody is loosing except Pentagon and your military machine, everybody else s.ucks. Only you is the lier here.

            “Sorry that Ukrainians aren’t perfect. That is still a weak excuse for sending millions of people into war and bloodshed.”
            The problem that you are not honest and want to play people’s lives at the worlds grand chessboard (as the old man Bdzhez formulated) 5000 mils away from your shores.

          • CFL68

            You keep bringing up the evil Ukrops bombing poor civilians, and I reminded you of Chechen war. The first one. The non-jihad secular war for independence. Russia leveled entire towns and cities and >100k mostly civilians killed. The destruction of Grozny was said to be worst since Dresden. Bull dozers pushing piles of bodies into mass graves. Russia was not fighting terrorists. Russia was fighting people it claimed were its own citizens.

            You accuse Ukrops of this but it never happened. The Russians did this. THEN when the leaders were decimated, the mufti declares jihad, etc., etc.

            The Ukrainians have done nothing like this. The rebels capitals are mostly intact after 3 years of war – even though there is plenty of evidence that Russian rebels using urban areas as firing positions. But sure there is death and destruction and both sides firing explosives at each other.

            Just stop your righteous BS about Ukrainians killing civilians. There would no war and no death at all if not for Russian aggression. 3 years into this and you still lie about this being a local conflict. It was Russia who started it, and maintains it. The war ends when Russia pulls out or Ukraine surrenders.

        • stranger

          “You seem rather to describe Yeltsins rule in Russia, when oligarchs interferred directly with state affairs during their private wars and ressources were not under control of the state. That’s something, Ukraine still has to overcome.”

          Exactly. I don’t like even new oligarchs, but they don’t interfere with state affairs.
          In 90s Berezovskiy, Gusinskiy, and less Khodorkovskiy, and others owned TV channels, used them to private wars, directly influenced weak and dependable Yeltsin who concentrated all power in own hands by firing parliament from tanks in 1993, played with Chechnya. Yeltsin time was a huge catastrophe for Russia. That time US was our best friend and sent canned meat as humanitarian aid.

          • CFL68

            Yes of course your implication is that it is the fault of the US and not the hollow and corrupt soviet system that collapsed.

            This feeds your hypernationalist mythology quite well.

            I’m sure it somehow ties into lethal Russian aggression against Ukraine in support of notoriously corrupt Yanukovych. Blyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

            All noise and distraction from issue.

          • stranger

            “Yes of course your implication is that it is the fault of the US and not the hollow and corrupt soviet system that collapsed.”
            I didn’t say that! But what you always forget-USSR with Gorbachev wanted to change itself. It is no any foreign power, US of whatever who “won” the Cold War as they love to dream of. Gorbachev agreed to withdraw Russian support from socialistic eastern Germany and destroy the Berlin Wall. Nobody could have made USSR to do that against its will. Btw eastern Germans took that differently. Gorbachev was looking for perestroika, glasnost and democratization. There were a lot of illusions around that. He didn’t keep the country, Yeltsin took over the initiative and in fact abolished Soviet Union leaving Gorbachev just w/o he’s position since USSR no longer existed. Yeltsin has a lot of illusions about the west too. US was our best “friend” that time and it is US consultants who established a dollar based economy a-la Latin America. A lot of illusions about US were shattered later and especially when this informational attack to Russia started on Ukrainian events also to a large extent provoked by US. But US is different isn’t an agglomerate of many fighting themselves parties and political groups. From time to time it is changed or supposed to be as with surprising victory of Trump. So as I said Russia can withstand a tremendous external pressure or even a war, but it is vulnerable to be destroyed from inside by own hands, that is why your government invest so much in propaganda inside Russia and other post soviet states. But not this time, go suc.k anything you like.

            “This feeds your hypernationalist mythology quite well.”
            What?? Where was I nationalistic?? Nationalism is very specific term, don’t confuse it with patriotism, completely different things. Give examples or shut up please.

      • stranger

        MadDog, better economy works better people live, more the country or a union can propose to the external market more goods it can receive in exchange.
        The trade union between Russia, Belarus and Ukraine would work because the industries and standards and compatible with each other. That all was a single distributed industry of the same country where the huge narrowly specialized factories working for all USSR. Then it was cut off in a moment, factories had to close.
        The potential union would make it work altogether and go with Europe from a much stronger positions. Now what Ukraine can do? Nothing just beg Europe to accept it, just beg more money to help, it cannot ever talk as an equal partner, not economical vassal.
        But khokhly decided to clear restrooms in Europe instead of build planes with moscals. To a great extend deceived and manipulated by your country.
        You see you may not take the union seriously, but your loved witch Clinton did, and worked to prevent it. Why, if it is not so important so us and hence for them?

        And as for live level, it is getting better over the time not only in moscow. Bentlies, Mazeraties at least Range Rovers are very wide spread and they belong not to the ‘Putin friends’ but to various bankers, owners of small or larger factories, owners or top managers of various companies, and as for Rovers even to financial analysts. Even Teslas appear but I wonder where they charge them.

        So your grim picture of Russia is just in your imagination.

  2. Mr.Bushkin

    Quote: “Its really not so different now is it? Maybe by degrees?”

    The essential difference to Yeltsins times is that income from selling resources by share wise state controlled enterprises is mainly used for pensions, education, healthcare, police and military (like for instance in Norway), instead of making oligarchs even richer.

    This is a huge progress towards creation of a healthy middle layer of society, which every post soviet country lacked initially.

    • CFL68

      LOL you are much closer to Yeltsin than Norway. By about 1 million miles. Have you ever even been to Russia?

      Although I certainly applaud any evolution away from corruption – even if its just baby steps. But is Putin really less corrupt, or did he simply have more cash from oil to throw around? Would Putin really look so shiny if he was getting $10/barrel instead of $100?

      Its a fun discussion, but none of this excuses Russian crimes against Ukraine and Ukrainians. I’m sure Russia would be squealing if China sent thousands of fighters and tanks and buks into Siberia and started carving out territory.

      • stranger

        I’m from Russia. So far Mr.Bushkin makes valid points about Russia, up to my knowleage.

        As for Ukraine, you again are lying, you are trying to skip the violent coup supported and made possible by US, ignore the demographic and opinions of people in Crimea and South East and the greatest separation in Ukraine, and blame only Russian suppport for appealing to Russia regions.

        Did you see the letter of Yanukovich to Trump, Merkel and Putin where he explains how it looked from his side and ask international help to investigate the Maydan and ATO crimes and set a peace in Ukraine? Very interesting. It shows you are lying by ignoring US contribution and hypocracy, when they paid attention (or not only attention) to one side and supported only one side. That you are lying Maydan was non-violent and wanted to reach peaceful changes in politics. You are lying that Yanukovich fled himself. You are lying that euro association would be good for Ukrainian economy, etc etc etc

        • CFL68

          Yanukovych fled because his own people denounced him.

          Russia is using lethal force on the territory of a neighboring country in direct attempts to violate its sovereignty and rewrite international borders. Thousands are dead and millions are displaced.

          Keep writing tens of thousands of words trying to distract from these basic facts, drop in innuendo and conspiracy theories, and imagine to yourself that its not Russia’s fault and that someone believes you.

          • stranger

            Read Yanukovich letter below. He didn’t flee until the Parliament was captured by the opposition, the parlamtaries who disagreed with the new power were intimidated and bitten, and Parliament announced impeachment without prescribed by constitution vast majority of voters and without required constitutional court decision. After that there were attempts to fire on his cortège, and attempts to detain him by the new power. He fled because at that moment the coup succeeded and he would be either prisoned or killed by unknown.

            By referring only Russian response, you are trying to distract the attention from the US sponsored coup, from the crimes at Maydan, from the crimes of the current government including ATO led to 10k casualties including 2k civilians. Don’t tell Russia is guilty in all of that, you know that is not true. If you release by a moment your pressure to Russia, you would be left with important questions, what did US do in Ukraine, how were those snipers, who committed crimes at Maydan, who fired on own cities killing thouthands of civilians. The only way for the ukr government and partially the previous US administration to avoid responsibility is to blame Russia in everything, disguise own sins and hope your lies would never be debunked. That’s why official Ukraine is lying, that is why you are lying trying to wash them white.

          • CFL68

            Bla bla bla we are all sinners – thanks for grand update.

            But ONLY Russia made war by sending killers and tanks into Ukraine. There is no war anywhere in Ukraine, even heavily russified regions – except where Russia has used lethal force to violate Ukrainian sovereignty.

            Please keep trying to spread blame for Russia’s decision to send killers to make war in Ukraine.


          • stranger

            Again, you are ignoring the reasons led to that, you are ignoring the people there, ignore the US involvement, initially targeted against Russian economical interests, and what those forces made from Ukraine for just several years. Again, that story started at Maydan, the first blood was shed by the opposition at Maydan, the country sank into chaos starting from Maydan. No any sovereignty when US inspired and supported the anti Russian coup, no any sovereignty later when Ukraine turned into US puppet.

          • CFL68

            Yes yes yes global conspiracy, US coup, customs tariffs and protection from gay-ropa.

            We get it.

            Russia had and has absolutely no choice but to use deception at the highest levels, and funnel thousands of troops/tanks/grads into Ukraine. This is all for Ukraine’s own good!

            You should write a book. It will sell well in Russia.

    • stranger

      In Yeltsin time also the taxes were hardly collected, everybody worked for black cash. Most of the social institutions were not working, in fact the state was weak and not functioning. Now it’s incomparably better.

  3. Mr.Bushkin

    Quote: “Although I certainly applaud any evolution away from corruption – even if its just baby steps”

    Really, it’s not about corruption, which is present everywhere to some degree.

    It’s more about having a middle layer (by western standards) of society, with population of this layer being capable of affording things, a much poorer average population of post soviet countries can’t. That’s also the difference to western countries, where the wealth of the population was groving for numerous generations. And the difference in quality of life is also not about some magical reforms, especially not about the IMF driven ones, which instead drain the wealth of the population in order to enable the state to pay off its debt to IMF.

    As for curruption, or rather oligarch fights for influence, you can for instance right now see some parliamentary named Semenchenko, whose private militia unit ( ) has been financed by oligarch Kolomoyski organizing a blockade of Donbass in violation of points 7 and 8 of Minsk II signed by his president, most likely in order to coincidentially disrupt the operation of oligarch Akhmetov’s assets located in Donbass, what already succeeded at least in case of the metallurgical ones.

    There was nothing comparable in Russia.

    • stranger

      Btw, the rail way blockade of coal from Donbas by the armed bands of Semenchenko (?) caused all Ukrainian industry to suffer. The government recognized the problems to the industry and announced the affected factories will be slowen down at the lack of coal. Nevetherless the government doesnt support it, but doesn’t dare to apply government forces to clear the railway. Probably because the bandits served in ATO and clashing with them would cause other ATO veterans to make another Maydan. So actually Ukrainian government controls nothing in their country. The armed groups of people, oligarchs private armies, not subordinated to the government, do whatever they want, from time to time engaging in clashes firing from automatic rifles against legal police or official armed forces. It’s worse than drug-mafia in Columbia, simply a failed state. Even in Russia of 90s it didn’t reach so large scale.

      • CFL68

        “Even in Russia of 90s it didn’t reach so large scale.”

        Right maybe the key variable is a super-power sending killers and tanks and buks to make war and destabilize your country?

        Oh wait – I forgot – Its Nuland’s fault.

        You keep up the kremlin propaganda meme of burning down your neighbors house, denying you are responsible, then complaining that he has a leaky roof.

        • stranger

          “You keep up the kremlin propaganda meme”
          No, I’m saying based on my understanding based in turn on hundreds of articles and witnesses from all the sides, of video facts, statements of key politicians from the first face. Where do you all get “Russian propaganda” – don’t watch it, guys, I don’t.

          • CFL68

            Well I guess your mind is somehow perfectly aligned with Russian propaganda that finds fault with the current lack of stability in Ukraine, while it is the one that sends killers and tanks to make war and destabilize.

            You cannot get more profoundly cynical.

            But this is new Russia. Don’t worry – everyone believes your version. Its Nuland’s fault and per Russian MFA – they aren’t involved.

            We get it already.

          • stranger

            What and who put Ukraine in the lack of integrity? Russia? Wrong answer.
            I can tell exactly the same about your cynicism, and especially you manner to shame other while blatantly lying yourself.
            That is my opinion, I said there are different points of view in Russia, as well as in Ukraine, as well as the west. I ask not to project my own drawbacks or opinions to all Russia.
            As for “you get it already” don’t take to much at yourself, just a small lier, people have own opinions, they don’t care about what you think. Those “we” are constantly mutating and may be not so numerious as the propaganda tries to paint it.

          • CFL68

            We do understand.

            Between Nuland’s cookies, and McCain’s balloons, Russia had no choice.

            This is obvious to all sensible people. The Ukrainians who speak Russian were at risk of crucifixion or becoming gay, or both – so it was incumbent upon Russia to do the only sensible thing.

            You need not worry. We are all with you on this!

            Without Russia’s green men and grads, we cannot imagine what horrors Ukraine would be suffering at this very moment.

          • stranger

            Just read the recent Yanuk letter below, better than pouring water with me.

          • stranger

            What a king of a cynical manipulator you are, CFL?? First you just lied, when that didn’t work, you started to insult me personally and aggressively push your narrative, when that didn’t work you started to shame me and appeal to conscience, when that didn’t work you started to ridiculate me. You tried all range of phycological manipulations on me, lying all the time! Once ridiculization is not working, what next?? Better ignore me, you haven’t try yet. I’m really tired from battles and endless going circles with you for the last year or so.

          • CFL68

            Sure – I’m the liar and you and Putin have told the truth. Russia had no choice but to do what Putin and the rest of the establishment and media pretend he isn’t actually doing.

            Keep righting long posts about it. Russia has very good reasons to do what it pretends it isn’t doing, and no one should worry about it anyway. Or else….


          • stranger

            Aha, you confirm the ridiculation step of your vain attempts of phycological manipulation. We are waiting until you realize it doesn’t works as well as all your other tools: lie, personal insults, aggressive pushing, shaming and catching on conscience and now ridiculation… you are so boring and predictable…

          • stranger

            Sorry, forgot, there were another stage between those above, where you tried to threaten us, you said Russia is “pariah”, you begged me to have mercy to ordinary Russian citizens, whom you prophesied the terrible death in convulsions from the western sanctions, and the condemnation by all humkind.

          • CFL68

            At least you aren’t exaggerating. No doubt Russia will emerge stronger, the people will be happier, and Russia will have widened its circle of trusted friends and allies.

            We get it.

          • brylcream

            “We get it”

            And who are ‘we’ by the way? Are you speaking for someone else? Some organisation? Maybe the i-army, the official organisation of The Ukrainian MoD that has its official website?

          • CFL68

            Everyone on thread and website in general who have heard it 1000x over several years from this guy.

          • stranger

            Are you saying we have changed our positions to the polarily opposite and still arguing? Joking, I have not change my position, at least until new reliable data is available. If you have switched – my congratulations, finally you got rid of shores and saw the light of truth. Just make sure this is not the light of incoming locomotive in a tunnel..

          • stranger

            You better comment what Yanuk said, that is new material update. Don’t lie please, we all are so tired from hearing lie.

          • CFL68

            Yes of course. 3 years after the corrupt leader flees after being denounced and rejected by his own party and people ‘he’ produces a nice very important letter we should all immediately read in order to jump down another rabbit hole – just to see what might be down there. Like you said, its ‘new.’

            I remember Russia produced some ‘new’ radar data in the wrong format (by international standards), 2 years after the event, and just before JIT produced its latest report. This is all good stuff and very important.


          • brylcream


            “I remember Russia produced some ‘new’ radar data in the wrong format (by international standards), 2 years after the event, and just before JIT produced its latest report. ”

            Sorry to interrupt your conversation with stranger in an Odisseia format but the Russians provided a raw data which mean all non-compressed data from radar. They also said they’ll provide help if the Dutch need it. But that’s just trolling, that complaint after four months of having the data is just an excuse from the Dutch side that is showing how ridiculous that ‘investigation’ really is.

            I’m pretty sure that the Russians have many more aces in their hand and are simply waiting. Especially the data from their military sources. I’m pretty sure that they have all military communications from that conflict and regarding that particular event recorded.

          • CFL68

            OK. So if Russian rebels didn’t do it accidentally, then what’s your theory? Ukraine did it and main victims are helping perpetrators cover this up and blame innocent Russia? I suppose we’ll have to wait and see. So far all the Russian stories have collapsed (generals claiming Ukraine jet did it, etc.). Maybe this time it will be difference and all evidence will be overturned and it will turn out to be space aliens?

            You can always hope.

            If you have new information please share, otherwise its been covered pretty well.

          • brylcream

            All that ‘investigation’ is just smoke and mirrors. Simply a single BUK TELAR can’t find such fast flying target as that unfortunate Boeing. Every expert knows that, the BUK is not a secret, there is one in the US as far as I know. Simply, that is a system with a Kupol radar designed for that purpose. Simply a radar beam of that TELAR is too narrow for that, its capabilities in finding a target are very limited.
            You have it explained here very well.

            The Russian generals never claimed that a Su-25 shot that plane, they just claimed that a jet, probably a Su-25 was there. Multiple witnesses saw another plane there, even on BBC report that was removed from their site quickly but still can be found. But, I’m sure that you know all that.

            You’re just spreading your lies about some invisible ‘Russian army’ even if video of the Chief of staff of the Ukrainian army is available where he is clearly saying that they are not fighting the Russian troops. What else do you want? Maybe he doesn’t know with whom his army is fighting against.

          • CFL68

            OK bro good luck with that.

            But if turns out it was a Russian buk would you support prosecution of whoever was responsible?

          • CFL68

            “Chief of staff of the Ukrainian army is available where he is clearly saying that they are not fighting the Russian troops”

            Why would you bring up this debunked propaganda meme?

            He says quite clearly that while they are fighting Russian soldiers and Russian citizens, that he did not believe that ‘at that moment’, Ukraine was fighting complete regular units of the Russian military.

            This was not and is not news to anyone. Russia did not launch a full scale overt invasion of Ukraine. This is a destabilization campaign. Thousands of fighters and tanks and grads and even buks have inflitrated across the border and are fighting in Ukraine.

            Bringing up this propaganda crap does not add to your credibility.

            Hey tell us the one about Poroshenko being an agent of the CIA. That’s a good one. Haven’t heard it in a while…

          • brylcream

            Why would you bring up this debunked propaganda meme?”

            This “propaganda meme” is a press conference of The Chief of Staff of the Ukrainian army. Is he a Kremlin spy?
            Where was that debunked by the way? In ukro-trash media?

          • CFL68

            He explicitly says Russian soldiers are involved in the attacks – just not full scale units of the Russian army. It is not a full scale invasion by units of the Russian army.

            Everyone agrees.

            What point are you trying to make? Do you think tanks and grads and Buryat tankers and Russian soldiers cross border to make war without assistance from Russian military?

          • stranger

            Good, good, you have just publicaly admitted that you ignore any evidence, not fit into your narrow predefined picture of the world, specifically intended to blame Russia. You are repeating your deceiving narrative and don’t want to get new information from the side you don’t like. 100% Really…
            You are loosing light, we are loosing him… help…

          • CFL68

            Of course. No doubt it will justify Russian aggression. I will be sure and read it soon and often. Thank you!

          • stranger

            That will not justify “Russian aggression” that will show that you lied when describing Maydan, east of Ukraine and all the context. That’s why you are afraid to comment it or even read and trying to close the eyes, just not to see anything which could shatter your deceiving narrative. Thanks for coming out. All is clear.

          • CFL68

            Sure. And Yanuk said he is not guilty and he was betrayed by even his own supporters and of course EU etc., etc. Big news. He wasn’t involved in any bad decisions but he knows all the secrets somehow.

            Sorry no justification for Russian killers and tanks to make war.

            Keep up the good work!

          • stranger

            You are clowning again?? Try to address the facts he is giving/confirming which are very different from the picture you tried to “sell” us. I’m so tired to argue with you… you seem to enjoy it, but your energy noticeably exhausted…

          • CFL68

            Yeah well I think we got your point that Russia is not to blame – its someone else including global conspiracy led by Nuland and others.

            You can keep repeating if you want.

          • stranger

            And we got your point of constant lie, aggression targeted to personalities, blind stupid hatred of Russia, when you directly called Ukrainians to revenge Russians, presumably by out of court violence, and claimed Ukraine should take vengeance on Russia and Russians for at least 20 years and other aggressive, stupid, pointless BS.

            Aren’t you tired to write all this BS and argue with me? Two “stubborn rams” found each other?

          • CFL68

            And yet Russia is under sanctions from the vast majority of its partners, its troops and tanks are in Ukraine killing, and Putin is still lying about the whole thing.

            So apparently its not just me who disagrees with you.

            You have succeeded in increasing my contempt for Russians who support Putin’s aggression. Congrats on that. Its true I am running out of fks to give for Russia.

          • stranger

            Russia is under sanctions, who cares, Russia will not give up to the external pressure because that would encourage to use this tool again and again. Unless you completely destroy Russia you can hardly change that, and your price to destroy would be very high.
            I said many times I don’t represent Russia. As well as you don’t represent US, as you said? Or where are you originally from. Honestly I never ever saw any person in US even remotely resembling your way of thinking and your way to express yourself. That’s why I had doubts about you, you really look more like Ukrainian or some post soviet person. We can ask Mad Dog probably if you look like an authentic yankee.
            You don’t only disagree with me, that is acceptable and even very good. You are lying and ignoring hard public evidences, that is unacceptable.
            Keep your contempt to yourself. You seem to be very egocentric person when you think your feelings bother everybody but yourself and your relatives. Btw do you Russia wife share your aggression towards Russia? Do you family and friend in Russia support your hatred to Russia? Ask them, I hope they will push back your dislocated brains on that… talk to them… don’t bother me, I’m really exhausted by your aggression, hatred, personal insults, repeating of propagandistic slogans.
            Again, nail in your brains – I don’t represent Russia. Talk to your close circle from Russia instead.
            Ok, let’s you answer the last time and the last word would be yours. Ok? Go..

          • CFL68

            “Russia will not give up to the external pressure”

            LOL you act as if Russia is under attack when its Russian fighters/tanks/grads – and the chain of command that organized and sent them and sustains them – killing in Ukraine – and not the other way around.

            Reason or logic does not play into this discussion.

            Keep sending killers and tanks into Ukraine and see what it gets you. We’ll see how long Putin can keep up the maskirovka and how long everyone has patience to keep pretending. Savor the consequences because this is what you asked for against all warnings from all major partners.

          • stranger

            Russia is under attack and this new Cold War was waged not by Russia. Sanction were initiated by US so US is to remove, if not that is not Russia’s business, would be just new border condition.

            Russia doesn’t “send tanks and soldiers to kill” Russia supports Russian speaking and apealing to Russia rebels whom the new anti Russian Ukrainian government came by the violent coup which is just US puppet now, came to kill and level their cities with the ground.

            There is no special maskirovka, I believe we know more or less all key factors, you are just lying on them, but that is an exception. Sooner the world would recognize the lying of Ukrainian side and how that coup was actually prepared and conducted.

            It is still funny to observe your desire to harm Russia and your gloating on that. I noted previously you look like self centered person with supercompensation perhaps. Russia will bear any consequences. And not even bear but will be defending herself and will be fighting for herself. Your governments are doing the stupidest thing, to wage a war, but they are unable to defeat Russia or destroy Russia w/o unacceptable cost for their side, so they will have to live with Russia and face common problems like Islamic terrorism together with Russia. All taking into account that your governments are guilty themselves to shed blood over the globe to annex territories (folklands etc) and even destabilizing Ukraine.

            Your military strategy’s always said: let Koreans to fight Koreans, Chinese to fight Chinese, Russians to fight Russians. So you have succeeded so far, not without putins help – Russians are fighting and killing Russians and the provocateurs are staying aside and even try to rule and earn on that.

            I couldn’t help to reply to your usual BS…Wanna give another last word? Something neutral not provocative please.

          • Mr.Bushkin

            Anyway, in my opinion, it would have been more reasonable to accept the 15 billions Euro loan from Russia, after EU refused to give any money, in order to upgrade the Ukrainian industry to EU standards within three years until the delayed EU association, instead of conducting a Red Ruthenian driven coup followed by aggressive postures towards opponents of the coup and eventually resulting in some illegal, Russia backed peace keeping force, with no one except locals of Donbas claiming responsibility for.

          • CFL68

            I suppose everyone is trying to build a narrative that fits with their world view. But its always important to keep the narrative connected to facts. Don’t you think it is strange how this rebellion was initiated by Russian paramilitary units and led by Russians? And that there is war only where these Russian ‘peace keepers’ are active?

            No doubt Ukraine had/has deep political issues to work through – but war?

            If we distill things down to their core facts, the political turmoil and events leading to corrupt leader fleeing never reached what should be a very high bar/threshold to justify Russian military intervention. Putin surely knows that carving out territory from neighbor, and bringing tanks and grads and buks will mean rivers of blood. Surely Russia would defend itself no less vigorously if foreign troops and tanks were capturing Russian territory…

            Russia understands this too. That is why they cannot speak the truth about the war they created and sustain.

          • Mr.Bushkin

            Quote: “I suppose everyone is trying to build a narrative that fits with their world view.”

            Any opinion is subjective as such.

            Quote: “But its always important to keep the narrative connected to facts. Don’t you think it is strange how this rebellion was initiated by Russian paramilitary units and led by Russians?”

            Girkin is for sure an intruder, responsible for plenty of escalation, but he emerged much later than events like for instance Pogrom of Kursun, raids by the so called “Right Sector” and its refusal to disarm according to Geneva agreement signed by Ukraine in 2014.

            Quote: “And that there is war only where these Russian ‘peace keepers’ are active?”

            I’d not call them “Russian peace keepers”, even if they enjoy support from Russian population and also seem to consist of it to some degree with Russian officials denying any involvement except for participation in the JCCC and Minsk II.

            The official narrative for regulation of the Ukrainian situation consist of the fulfillment of these points in the logical order, which to my knowledge has also been agreed on:

          • CFL68

            Girkin, Borodai, Kozitsyn, Ponomaryov, Bezler, etc., etc. all these guys coming in with gangs and launching lethal attacks, creating fiefdoms for themselves, and all in the context of the invasion/annexation of Crimea.

            I get that you have a list of excuses of ‘pogroms’ and ‘crucifixions’ and ‘mass graves’ (most wildly exaggerated) – but add them all up and none of them justify Russian aggression that includes thousands of fighters, tanks, buks, etc. Russian soldiers and tanks means massive escalation from domestic political dispute into actual war. This is where we are now.

            You try to downplay the role of the Russian chain of command in terms of logistics, vacationing soldiers, heavy weapons, and massive financing – and pretend that the whole thing is like some bad weather that somehow just appeared.

            There is no new information except that over time more and more will be revealed about the depth of coordinated Russian intervention that Putin continues to hide. We know that in areas controlled by Ukraine, there are no pogroms or mass graves or genocides, etc. There is only war where Russia makes war.

            So I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I support sanctions against Russia and whatever else is required to protect Ukraine from further aggression – and to re-establish full control over its borders. I separate Crimea from this and think Russia should make some offer to compensate Ukraine for all damages and losses, hold some Scotland-like referendum in 3-5 years, but all contingent upon complete pull out from Donbass and reparations.

            Russia really should have stopped after Crimea.

          • brylcream

            “Girkin, Borodai, Kozitsyn, Ponomaryov…

            Strelkov came to Donbass in April 12, 2014, after Turchinov announced the ATO on TV in April 7, 2014.

          • CFL68

            I suppose we can debate the dates. I am pretty sure that while both sides were talking a lot about secession/independence/ultimatums/crackdowns, in early April, as far as I know ATO operations started on or around the 15th-16th, and even on the 11th Yats was in Donetsk offering reform, amnesty, etc. Not sure exactly when Girkin arrived, but the first lethal attacks we know of were on the 12th. These attacks were the catalyst for Ukraine using force.

          • CFL68

            No action was taken. Even on 4/11 Yats was in Donetsk trying to accommodate protests with promises of reform, decentralization, and amnesty. It was not until AFTER Girkin started lethal attacks (not political protests) that Ukraine began responding with lethal force.

            There is no need to misrepresent what happened.

          • stranger

            CFL, When we keep the narratives connected to fact we should no artificially pick up facts which only suits our narrative, we should no loudly announce our facts and hide the other facts not corresponding to our world view, we should not pick up facts out of context.

            Russia helped rebels to organize the republics at the initial stage with all heads of rebellion republic now are locals. Yes she did. Why did she do it? We should start from the beginning, or in this case the most important acute event – the coup.

            What was Russia supposed to do if Ukraine is and has always been a very important neighbor for Russia, if there are deep industrial (destroyed a bit after USSR but still) ties, relatives ties, historical ties, if all agreements with Ukraine were reached and signed and 3bil already granted and then everything was broken up, it the battle in Ukraine started between Ukrainian nationalists and pro Russian people? And with all of that US rudely intruded where they were not supposed to be, and made possible the coup which not only violates Russian economical and political interests and supports the new nationalistic anti Russian forces in Ukraine, but US knew that it was intended against Russia and demonstratively bragged “Russia has a right not like it, but it has to accept it”. Russia refused to accept this slap in the face, and reacted unsymmetrically, but still that was a reaction not original reason as you are trying to convince us.

            But the coup hurt not only Russia but also Ukraine. When they planned calmly in peace they could reason what are the benefits, and the drawbacks of “euro association”, they could trade the conditions, they could stand for own interests. Limitedly but still. The coup broke up any freedom of maneuver, people blinded by passion just to remove the Vlada (power) finally ruined their economy since it was predicted that euro association is good for Europe but harmful for Ukrainian economy, especially because Russia clearly promised to close own market since the free float of cheep European goods through Ukraine would hurt Russian economy, the people at the coup found the lost sovereignty and found themselves finally under a direct rule of US, they have turned against them all pro Russian south east from Odessa to Crimea and Donbas. The people blinded by passion at Maydan didn’t think about that, didn’t think at all.

            Ukraine is a complex compound state with deep ties to Russia from south and east part and deep anti Russian traditions of the west which Mr.Bushkin calls Red Ruth, we rather call Galitsya, territories for centuries occupied by Poland, returned to Russia/USSR only about 70 years ago. It is very dangerous to play nationalism in such flammable environment.

            I just ‘d like to say not to pick up facts selectively to support our world view, we should see all the context, that is a complex and contradictory situation. You cannot blame only Russia

          • stranger

            “So I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I support sanctions against Russia and whatever else is required to protect Ukraine from further aggression – and to re-establish full control over its borders.”
            You always “forget” the most important point. There is Minsk, all sides signed with the mediation of Merkel and Olland. Minsk provides the number of steps in a certain order to settle down and reestablish full control over the border. Now Ukraine has stuck at item 4 conduct elections and give certain autonomy for Donbas inside Ukraine. The border is the last but one item. The item order is unambiguously specified. Everybody agrees Minsk is the only solution, including US, including Russia, including rebels themselves.
            No wonder you always occasionally “miss” and “forget” such an “unimportant point” and propose to push Russia instead.

          • CFL68

            Sure. Wow. That’s interesting. You can take it up in court after Russia acknowledges its accountability for aggression against Ukraine – not to mention flagrant violations of Minsk by assaulting Debaltsev immediately after signing the agreement where it pretends not to be a belligerent.

            Why do you keep bringing this up? No one anywhere – and certainly not the OSCE – has confirmed that Russia has fulfilled its obligations. Keep barking if you want. Ukraine has every right to proceed at its own pace in the face of Russian lies and aggression. Measured against Russian crimes, Ukraine should be given a sainthood.

            But please keep repeating – maybe someone cares about your BS?

          • stranger

            You have just called Minsk agreements – Bullshit. Tell that to Merkel, tell to Olland whose signatures are under Minsk, call what they did to stop the bloodshed at Ukraine – just bullshit… Take Parabellum and go to na3stic volunteer battalion to fight for Ukraine against the hordes of Mongolian-Russians.

            OSCE has never concluded Russia prevents Minsk from implementation. The cease fire more or less is observed, when Ukraine doesn’t provoke to harm Russia when Trump is about to ally Russia like recently in Avdeevka etc. The item where all sides are stuck is ELECTIONS. Invite foreign observers, watch every voting box, but go ahead! Ukraine says No, we will not allow any elections until we kill each and every separatist there. But that has nothing to do with Minsk. Did you sign Minsk, all sides agreed on Minsk – IMPLEMENT WHAT YOU SIGNED! Bring peace, you are not able to kill or prison every eastern Ukrainian there, let them live as they want.

            PS the town is called Debaltsevo, not Debaltsev.

          • CFL68

            If Russia is a belligerent yet signing as a neutral, and then engaging in attacks to capture major cities before the ink has even dried, then yes – its BS. But no one knows what to do since it is all they have. So they talk about it. Russia started the war so is clearly not a good faith peace participant, and Ukraine is the victim. I suppose things will settle down eventually but not before Russia pulls out and pays reparations. So it might be a while. In the mean time, Ukraine should continue to implement what it can without taking any unnecessary risks.

            As for elections, it is absurd to even suggest that free and fair elections could be held while there are thousands of Russian fighters – and all the people and infrastructure to support them – still roaming Donbass. So its a conundrum for sure.

          • stranger

            Guys, how do you manage to post comments in the middle of the long branch?

          • stranger

            Again, tell that to Minsk signatories. They planned elections BEFORE handing the border under Ukrainian control. Why? Because the rebels would no accept Ukraine to kill them or prison before elections. Because no any free elections are possible under Ukrainian armed control. Because that is a compromise serving all sides. Because it is not going to stop war otherwise. All Minsk signatories including EU know that. US knew that when supported and called to implement Minsk.
            Ukraine signed Minsk.
            Answer a simple question – who, which side, prevents Minsk from being implemented for already 2years and continue to fire on the besieged cities and kill more and more civilians?

          • stranger

            Brylcream “Strelkov came to Donbass in April 12, 2014, after Turchinov announced the ATO on TV in April 7, 2014.”
            Oh gosh, that’s true. Turchinov reacted to the capture of administrative buildings in the east of Ukraine (the same as Maydan did in Kiev and all western Ukraine) by announcing they will apply “antiterroristic measures” to those people. Strelkov came only on 12th. The decree of ATO appeared at the presidential site on 14th.

            Why the heck, cf l is trying to convince us Strelkov and Russian undercover GRU soldiers started unrests in the east, that it alergedly was a Russian occupation!

            It is needed to keep an eye on what he is claiming, he tends to categorically push his narrative and ignore or even hide all real facts.

          • CFL68

            Strelkov didn’t come on 4/12. His unit launched its first lethal ambush that we know of. Ukraine had already been watching well kitted paramilitary units of little green men infiltrate and capture buildings.

            Quite different from political protests on central square.

            Lethal ambushes killing soldiers are certainly not political protests. After this, ATO began.

          • stranger

            “Strelkov didn’t come on 4/12. His unit launched its first lethal ambush that we know of.”
            What his unit? Do you mean a particular known fact or that is just your imagination, when you see Russian GRU agents under each bush?

            “Ukraine had already been watching well kitted paramilitary units of little green men infiltrate and capture buildings.”
            Again, what little men??? We didn’t see any weapon from protesters until Girlin. If not – please give hard fact evidence.

            “Quite different from political protests on central square.”
            Not at all, may be you missed again how town halls and city administrations were captured over all western, central-western areas, Lvov, Ivano-Frankovsk and dozens more, weapon arcenals were robbed, weapon stollen, probably supplied to Maydan.

            If we missed some facts supporting your theory please give them to us, just don’t blame based on your speculations.

          • CFL68

            You’ll notice a pattern from this stranger guy – always pretending ignorance then when caught out will simple say ‘who cares’ – whether it is Girkin or Mh17…

            Try this:

            “After all, I pressed the launching trigger of war. If our squad did not cross the border, at the end all would have been finished as in Kharkiv or Odessa. Practically, the flywheel of war which lasts until now was launched by our squad. And I bear a personal responsibility for what is happening there.

            Igor Girkin, Newspaper “Zavtra”, 20 November 2014″

          • stranger

            Again, tell that to M1nsk signatries. They planned elect1ons BEFORE handing the border under Ukrainian control. Why? Because the rebe1s would not accept Ukraine to k1ll them or pr1son before elect1ons. Because no any free elect1ons are possible under Ukrainian armd control. Because that is a compromise serving all sides. Because it is not going to stop war otherwise. All M1nsk signatries including EU know that. US knew that when supported and called to implement M1nsk.

            Ukraine signed M1nsk.

            Answer a simple question – who, which side, prevents M1nsk from being implemented for already 2years and continue to fire on the beseged cities and k1ll more and more civil1ans?

            PS sorry for dups, would he great to know their black word dictionary

          • stranger

            “You’ll notice a pattern from this stranger guy – always pretending ignorance then when caught out will simple say ‘who cares’ – whether it is Girkin or Mh17…”
            What??? I cannot know all the facts, I don’t pretend to know everything, so I encourage you to support your empty speculations with your facts.

            And you see, what CF L is doing?? He is asked one question, and he answers the OTHER, trying to distract the discussion. His slyness tells he is Ukrainian or a NAT0 troll. Combined with the arsenal of phycological manipulation instruments a-la NLP…

            I asked for the facts the armed Strelkov groups appeared BEFORE administration captures and BEFORE Turchinov threatened with ATO? Not after! So that they are the single cause for the unrests, not joining existing unrests.

            I know this Girkins interview, I first posted for you this interview here publically some time ago. It doesn’t answer this QUESTIon to you

          • stranger

            Ukrainian side for internal use claims already that elect1ons shouldn’t be allowed at Donbas for the next 20-30 years, so that all relatives of suffered victims would already forget about that and the generation changed. In practice that means – never. But not official statement of course.

          • Mr.Bushkin

            Quote: “Russian aggression that includes thousands of fighters, tanks, buks, etc.”

            Frankly, I do not think so.

            But I wish you nontheless mentally healthy politicians and officials for your country.

          • CFL68

            Borodai, the Russian leader of the rebellion, claimed up to 50,000 Russians had fought over course of conflict.

            Is it 1000 or 10000? 30000? Does it matter? Tanks/grads/buks? Vacationing soldiers from Buryatia and only the gods know where else? This does not happen without Russian chain of command being involved.

            And thanks regarding mental health of our leader and his people. God save us all!

          • stranger

            I guess not only Trump is meant. Sometimes it seems all politicians of your country have lost their minds, and are eager for a war. From McCain through all previous black administration to McFaul. Russian hackers hacked their minds, really, Russians are guilty again, who else, russia is always guilty.

            You didn’t answer did unrest started before or after Girkin came so that is it Girkin responsible to all unrestst or he just joined?

          • CFL68

            Yeah I think the big mental challenge you have is that you are trying to conflate ‘unrest’ with ‘war.’

            Ukraine was full of political unrest. No doubt. Some violence too. All sides guilty.

            But Russian warlords and fighters crossed into Ukraine to convert the ‘unrest’ into a ‘war.’ War and unrest are quite different. Unrest can even have shootings and crimes mixed in with political protest. War is when paramilitary gangs use lethal force to capture territory and challenge the sovereignty and territorial integrity of a country. They were trying to carve out some thing called ‘Novorosiya’ from the existing country of Ukraine. If they are sponsored by Russia – it magnifies the danger by orders of magnitude – especially after Russia had just invaded and annexed Crimea.

            So keep pretending that protests/unrest are the same as war – I just disagree.

          • Mr.Bushkin

            Quote: “All that ‘investigation’ is just smoke and mirrors. Simply a single BUK TELAR can’t find such fast flying target as that unfortunate Boeing.”

            A TELAR has a redundant capability do detect targets with the fire control radar, if it points towards the target in order to compensate for possible failures of the external detection radar.

            However, the hypothetical case of supplying a single Buk TELAR instead of an autonomous and standalone system like for instance “Osa”, “Tor”, “Tunguska”, “Pantsir” or “Strela”/”Igla” seems strange.

          • CFL68

            They did provide Strela and others. Someone had a spare buk apparently – maybe ‘mothballed’ stock? If Russia truly wanted to provide truth we would no doubt have all the details by now. These systems are not just lying around. Someone somewhere signed something to release that piece of inventory. Maybe it was ‘spisano’, sent to Ukraine, then destroyed upon return. Look for paperwork in Russia showing a buk was decommissioned and scrapped during spring/summer 2014. Just a hunch…

            But sending over a single unit makes perfect sense if what they are trying to do is retain plausible deniability. The most likely scenario is exactly what JIT suggests – rebels getting hammered by aviation and need help. A buk is a lot more dangerous than igla or short range strela. Buk would totally shut down Ukrainian sorties. They just made a targeting mistake for some of the reasons you imply. A crew of buk telar does not have much time to make a decision. They made a bad decision.

          • Mr.Bushkin

            Quote: “s it 1000 or 10000? 30000? Does it matter? Tanks/grads/buks? Vacationing soldiers from Buryatia and only the gods know where else? This does not happen without Russian chain of command being involved.”

            You know, it’s like with your wrong statement from other comments to this article about legislations becoming laws only after being signed by president instead of becoming laws after passing a parliamentary vote with presidential signature allowing their promulgation.

            It’s your perfect right to have an unfounded opinion and to insist on it being true long as you wish, but do not expect others to share it without any irrefutable evidence.

          • CFL68

            LOL the law you speak of was never signed and is not an active executable law by any standard. No one is even suggesting this but you. Are you still trying to say that is it an active law on the books of Ukraine? Utter nonsense.

            As for thousands of Russian troops in Ukraine – the 50K number was given by the rebel leader Borodai. Believe it or not I don’t care.

            Active duty Russian soldiers have been captured in Ukraine. Only the gods know how many have been killed. Not sure what more evidence you need. Tanks? Buks? Grads? Even Putin finally admits soldiers are there ‘doing certain jobs.’

            So your denials really just breed contempt. If you had just cause Russia would not be lying.

          • stranger

            But Turchinov (not light image) announced a war by throwing regular army to suppress unrests. That is where the switch turned. Girkin came later (if not give your facts, I may not know everything)
            The rebels and even supporting them Girkin guys did not “use lethal force” to “capture territory” they almost didn’t have any resistance, they didn’t use tanks, artillery, planes to capture the cities. Ukraine did, by the army which came from the center, west, the leveling the cities with the ground.
            The responsibility of the sides is not equal. And Ukraine who used heavy weapon against own regions bears more. Any country has the monopoly to kill at own territory, your country, my country, but it must not be overused especially agains people who are just living there and have nothing to do with politics. Ukraine bears full responsibility for this war against own region.

          • stranger

            “Active duty Russian soldiers have been captured in Ukraine.”
            How many?? Just two people and another 6-7??? For 3 years of war, they have just captured a couple of soldiers? And still claim they are fighting Russian regular army??

            “Only the gods know how many have been killed. ”
            There is no any massive flow of coffins to Russia! That is just a lie of Ukrainian side and some of our fifth column representatives. As if mothers of the killed soldiers were paid (!) by FSB so that they were silent(!) Can you imagine a mother of a killed soldier, she would tear you apart for a hint of such suggestion. Absolutely wired lie. If there were a lot of soldiers died we would know inevitably.

          • CFL68

            What are we even arguing? Do you think Putin would take the steps of violating border to send just 5 soldiers? Or 10? Just one tank? Imagine the level of responsibility/approvals required to send soldiers and weapons across the border. How are they being financed? Who issued orders to border security to let both fighters cross back and forth?

            He sent enough to foment and sustain war – but not enough so that Ukraine could declare that Russia had launched full scale invasion.

          • Mr.Bushkin

            Quote: “LOL the law you speak of was never signed and is not an active executable law by any standard. No one is even suggesting this but you. Are you still trying to say that is it an active law on the books of Ukraine? Utter nonsense.”

            You may of course think so, but the reality is different, as already shown by multiple and more reliable sources, like for instance:

            “Kyrylenko spricht sich gegen jegliche offizielle Stellung der russischen Sprache in der Ukraine aus. Nach dem Sieg der Euromaidan-Revolution initiierte er einen Gesetzesentwurf, dem zufolge Russisch auch in mehrheitlich russischsprachigen Gebieten nicht mehr als zusätzliche Regionalsprache anerkannt werden sollte. Auch der Schutz weiterer Minderheitensprachen wären davon betroffen gewesen.[2] Der Entwurf wurde mit einer knappen Mehrheit im Parlament angenommen und gehörte zu den Auslösern der Krise auf der Krim und in der Ostukraine. Aufgrund eines Präsidentenvetos trat Kyrylenkos Gesetzesentwurf jedoch nicht in Kraft.”


          • CFL68

            Is it an active and enforceable law in Ukraine or not?

            Simple question. Please confirm yes/no.

          • Mr.Bushkin

            Quote: “LOL the law you speak of was never signed and is not an active executable law by any standard.”

            How does it fit with your statement: “It was never removed because the proposed legislation to remove it was never signed into law.”

            A legislation becomes a law as soon as it has been positively voted by the parliament, see: “Bills are usually considered by the Verkhovna Rada following the procedure of three readings; the President of Ukraine must sign a law before it can be officially promulgated.[1]”


          • Mr.Bushkin

            Quote: “Is it an enforceable law or not? Yes or no?”

            Your attempts to switch from the point of relevance will not change the point as such: It’s not about whether the introduced law is enforeable, it’s about whether the introduced law has been introduced or not. An the law is introduced as soon as the related legislation has been accepted by the legislative.

            Latter acceptance or rejection by the executve is here outside of the scope of discussion.

            Therefore your statement: “It was never removed because the proposed legislation to remove it was never signed into law.” is wrong as shown for already two times.

          • CFL68


            If it is not signed it is not an enforceable law.

            I have no clue what you are going on about – and its quite amazing that you are still pressing the point.

            So if the rada passed a law that renamed Monday to Friday, and the president did not sign it, would Ukrainians be obligated by law to call Monday Friday?

            Pick any example you want.

          • Mr.Bushkin

            Quote: “If it is not signed it is not an enforceable law.”

            To which extent is it then not introduced by the legislative?

          • CFL68

            LOL just let me know when you have evidence that this is an enforceable law. Really not sure wht you keep posting about this. Show a bit of integrity and admit you were mistaken. This legislative package was never signed into law. Try to find mistakes in my grammar or semantic nuances if you want.

            “In case of Ukraine, a corresponding law has been introduced in 2012, with its removal after the coup in 2014 causing plenty of unrest in regions with Russian as historical native language and being later vetoed by Turchinov.”

            It was never removed. Removal would have required a new law signed by President. There was never a time when the new 2014 legislation was an active enforceable law because it was never signed by the President. The law ‘introduced’ (or adopted or enacted or whatever the hell you want to call it) back in 2012 that elevated Russian to official regional language is still in place. The proposed law to over turn it was never signed.

            Yes this scandal did promote unrest, and was exaggerated by Russian media to point of calling it a Russian language ban. But it never actually happened, and it is no casus belli for Russia. In the worst possible case it would have demoted Russian language back to the protected minority language status that it had always had up until 18 months prior.

          • stranger

            CLF fled from here, but continue his propagandistic job on twitter. There is no any single personal twit there, only politics, only blatant propaganda against Trump and against Russia. Its funny how Russia appeared at the same side with US president. Most of his followers and followed are Ukrainian propagandistic organizations, authors and private bloggers. No wonder he is calling for a military solution and trying to divert attention from Minsk peace agreements as if there were no peace agreements signed by all sides. He is just a pathetic (pro)Ukrainian troll working mostly on twitter and other internet sites.

          • Mr.Bushkin

            Quote: “This legislative package was never signed into law. […] Removal would have required a new law signed by President. There was never a time when the new 2014 legislation was an active enforceable law because it was never signed by the President.”

            Here you go again: “Bills are usually considered by the Verkhovna Rada following the procedure of three readings; the President of Ukraine must sign a law before it can be officially promulgated.[1]” ( )

        • stranger

          Brylcream: the video as of 7 apr where he was announcing ATO…
          Am I right to understand Turchinov combined the responsibilities of the head of Verkhovnaya Rada (parliament) and temporary president surrogate??? And moreover both positions he gained simultaneously immediately as the coup won. So no any separation of powers, the parliament and president is the one, and that one is not elected or legitimate?? So this one concentrated all power in his hands absolutely not legitimate and never elected started a war against own east region caused to 10k and 2k civilians death. When they were at Maydan, when hundreds of administrations were captured at the other half of the country the western one, nobody ever, Yanuk never threw militarily forces to desperate them.
          US representatives pushed Yanuk hard almost every day not to apply any force, to recognize protesters, to negotiate. And as soon as the power has changed to a anti Russian one, US supported, US completely gave them the license to kill, completely distanced and closed their eyes on the violence, in fact the war announced to own Ukrainian region. 7 apr no any Girkin was there. People uprose in the same way Maydan uprose, the same way unrests in the western Ukraine started and administration captured. But since they were against the coup they were thrown regular army against them. Never ever before in Ukraine so much blood was shed as the new government came by the coup shed.

    • stranger

      The recent letter of Yanukovich to Trump. Then Putin and Merkel (!) It is important because it is from the first face, from the immediate participant of those events so to say. In Russian, sorry, pls use translate dot google dot com or try to find in English. But I believe many here do read Russian. CFL definitely. I’ve not found full literal translation, juts some lonely mentions in the western press. Do you think NYT and WP would refer it in a positive matter? Rhetorical question.

      The letter is long. Briefly, he is saying he didn’t refute Euro-Association, but postponed because the consequences to Ukrainian economy would be enormous and he said he tried to trade better conditions together with all involved countries including Russia. He appeared to be right over the last time. You blame Russia in deterioration of Ukrainian economy, but forget, that the association is in place and the deterioration due to association and possible Russian reactions were clearly predicted.
      Then he is directly blaming US administration to clearly interfere into Ukrainian affairs and support the protesters, ignore the violence of protesters and violations of all agreements, ignore who shed blood and lying it was the government, taking intimidating statements when the protest started at the east, so hypocritical to the bones, he ever claims that US embassy provided a coordination like headquarters for the protesters. etc
      Then he blames the opposition in capturing of 100+ administrations at the center-west, threatening to get weapon to Maydan, and actually killing dozens and injuring hundreds of law enforcement policemen. Snipers who killed policemen and protesters.
      My addition: The coup seems to be very well prepared for the last battle. Yanuk didn’t estimated it correctly for the first time. That seemed like and was presented to the west as just a bunch of peaceful people, cruelly bitten by Yanukovich police. Complete BS.
      He is blaming opposition in violation of peace agreements with EU mediation, and no US presence, after Yanuk signed everything they demanded from him and revoked Berkut (?) After which Maydan extreme nationalists waged violence evening the same day and the next day.
      He is saying the Rada (Parliament) and all government buildings were captured by the opposition, that Rada changed the chairman to the one from the opposition and illegally violating Ukrainian constitution impeached him. His helicopters were attempted to return from the air, they were faced a military tried to detent him at Kharkov, his cortege was fired at from automatic riffles.
      He ends up by the requests to international investigation of the crimes at Maydan, pushing the current Ukrainian government to implement Minsk agreements, if they refuse it, to conduct a broad referendum in Donbas.

      That is what I though is interesting, his letter is large. Even though he doesn’t say about the Russian support of the rebels, his interview makes a lot of sense, he was right on many things happened later. And that is the first-face interview, not reinterpretation of interpretations. Compare to the bloodthirsty statements and demands of the new governments. Ukraine has been immersed into chaos starting from the coup.

    • stranger

      Hi John, you may disagree, but I’d say: stay away from any site or organization where there are words in the title like Democracy, Liberty, Equality, Justice, For Peace against War, for all good against all evil, and especially OSINT : )) They are going to wash one’s brain. They have nothing to do with those originally great but always misused words, they use them to cover up their propagandistic (manipulative) nature..

      • John Zenwirt

        Thanks, stranger, you are still holding out against all odds. Good for you. I note your point. Here’s the NYT on Russia’s recent Syria veto @ UN:

        “The vote marked the seventh time since 2011 that Mr. Putin protected Mr. Assad from international condemnation or sanctions and, as often is the case, China followed Russia’s example. Although Moscow had made clear in advance that it would veto the resolution, Britain and France were right to insist on a vote and to expose Russia’s moral bankruptcy.” (NYT)

        • stranger

          It was clear that Russia would veto the resolution, but still US first of all and always supporting it Britain and I wonder why France insisted to this performance just to show off Russia evil again. Russia and Turkey organized the peace negotiations in Astana between Assad government and all opposition groups who are not obvious terrorists. Just right now the peace negotiations are going on in Geneva.
          The Russian position is that it is a very wrong time to take politicized resolutions when the fragile attemp to find a compromise is going on.
          China claimed there are no any reliable probes that the government is behind attacks. The coalition didn’t need proves actually if their aim was to exploit a political incident. It is most likely that China’s claim makes sense.
          It is not US and Britain to talk about moral, if they wanted to strengthen their “moderate opposition” position at the current peace negotiations or even break up the negotiations completely. They are doing nothing to end the war.
          The civil war with the participation of foreign jikhadists and support of many external players is going for 5-6 years already and half a million died.
          It is time to forget about politics and geopolitical ambitions and try to reconcile the sides somehow and remove all Saudi, and other Sunni foreign mercenaries.
          US and Britain not only encouraged the “Arab Spring” which destroyed Egypt, Libya, and then Syria, indirectly helped to create ISIS by destroying Iraq, but also actively supported the anti government armed groups in Syria with weapon, money and media support.
          It’s time to stop the war, they do nothing for that, just wage war, just use political excuses to hummer Russia, who tries to do at least something together with Turkey and together with all negotiable sides. Russia also insist on including Kurds in the negotiations, which Turkey is against. Russia invited US side to the negotiations.
          US and Britain has been showing themselves just so fantastic hypocrites, looking for a war. Its not them to ever mention moral.

    • stranger

      Their biggest biggest sponsor is Open Society Foundation. In his interview with Zhanna Nemtsova, the Bellingcat’ head Eliot slipped once that Bcats receives money from that fund as well as other sources. That fund was founded and is governed by George Soros, the billionaire and maecenas, infamous particularly by breaking British Pound and the Bank of England by the financial speculations against British currency and earning $1 billion dollars on that speculation. He is also infamous by the support of NGOs all over the world pursuing political targets. Even the recently well organized protests like “ladies against Trump” in the US allegedly are ascribed to him(he is a democrat). He is also behind many propagandistic sites, groups, and NGOs. He is a businessman, he has some political views which he tries to promote by billions, and he would hardly spend his money without a purpose.

      Some articles at that site look curious including one on Russia, but still snobistic to Russia, others on Russia are just crap.

      The issue with such propagandistic sites, that one and Bellingcat is that they republish the materials of clearly and strongly biased authors which suit their agenda and ignore everybody else. For the most of readers, especially those who don’t know the subject (Russia in this case), those pre selected authors seem experts and their singleminded private opinions are projected to the real subject. That is the major instrument of any propaganda.

      But just my opinion, you can google Open Society Foundation, Soros and ruined British Pound, Soros and politics.

    • stranger

      John, as for article itself. Sorry for general considerations, but it was clear what a kind of site it is.
      The author starts the article with loud and sensational introduction:
      “Three years on from Crimea’s annexation by Russia, brutal torture is being used to scare the peninsula into silence and submission.”
      Did he prove his point (or that is editors additions)? No. No mass repression, no intimidation, no fear or forceful “submission”. This phrase is just pure weird lie. It has nothing to do with reality. Read blogs of Crimeas, social media, Facebook, nobody is frightened to silence or threatened.
      The article refers to just several particular cases, but claims to be much more from what it is. Sentdov never ever mentioned about electric-torture, that is pure fantasy of the author, Sentdov complained on beating, still only from his words, Panov from Ukrainian sabotage group did, but see below. Sentsov was accused by other captured person who did a symbolic explosion, planned other explosions. Is he guilty, I would not be sure, but that is a single particular case.
      The missing Crimea tatars, how many are missed? Just few times for 3 years. And some or majority of those cases are just unrelated criminal ones.
      The most detainees author tells about are related to the two clashes with the sabotage team, sent from Ukraine to Crimea. They are NOT Crimeas at all!
      The author shyly omits that the second incident, when the sabotage group was trying to fight their way back to Ukrainian border, they were supported by the fire of Ukrainian IFE across the border, one Russian soldier was shot dead and 2 saboteurs.
      Panov, arrested member of that armed sabatage group did complaint of exotic tortures and nobody else. Was he telling the truth? I’m not sure, why should he. If he was a saboteur indeed, sent to Crimea from Ukraine to organize teracts and later ascribe them to the internal Crimean resistance, would not he tell that all witnessers he gave about Ukrainian SBU which sent him are given under tortures, would not he lie about the most wierd and exotic tortures, nobody else ever mentioned? If he didn’t lie, he would be prisoned back to Ukraine if and when he returns.
      We know about those torturers only from the words of the detainees and their lawyers. There is no doctor report or anything to prove that. There is an objective fact of the killed in cross fire Crimean soldier. On the authors side are pure unconfirmed speculations.
      Anyway the article claims of massive terror and fails to prove it. So the worse ever you can think about Crimea is all listed in this article, for 3 years. If there was anything else they would mentioned it. Few particular cases, with half of them – terroristic raid of Ukraine into Crimea.
      The article failed to prove its thesis by one simple reason – because there are no mass repressions, no fear, and the author of the article and/or “opendemocracy” editors are just simply liers.

      • stranger

        If Panov was tortured indeed why his lawyer didn’t insist on objective medical examination of those signs?? Why didn’t his lawyer publically vie mass media demanded the independent medical examination? In the recent case with Dadin, it was done. The tortures are just from their unconfirmed words. Even if they were, though hard to believe because if above – just a single nonsystematic case. Not a system, not related to Crimeas at all!
        I understand that Bellingcat and other propaganda just tries to undermine the trust to everything Russia is doing, that is important for propagandists, because would spare their efforts, people would say – ah Russia, then they are lying we apriory don’t believe them, a priori their are guilty, but criminals, terrorists and other prisoners and slanderers are telling the truth, because the are anti Russian. Stupid logic. There should be any common sense still. Need to review the cases but be careful with deceiving over exaggerations, really.

      • John Zenwirt

        Thank you for your informative post, you know more about this than I do, that is evident….

  4. stranger

    Do you remember how much noise was risen that Russia bombed the humanitarian convoy half an year ago. Samantha Powers and British representative in UN condemned Russia and read long accusation speeches, called to punish Russia, add more sanctions. How bellingcat was proving by tail fin picture that Russia did it.
    And what happened? UN completed the investigation and concluded that Russia has nothing to do with convoy bombing. In a normal world first the investigation is done, next the accusations and punishment go.
    I wonder would bellingcat apologizes to Russia and publish a denial? Rhetorical question.
    Many many other accusations are built on the same principle. Accuse, punish, real own political goals, and then may be somebody will complete an investigation but usually they are never completed, and then nobody would be interested in the result already.

    • John Zenwirt

      I now agree this site spends too much time on Russia. There are at least 205 countries in this world. Why not concentrate on Nigeria, world’s most corrupt State…? And the big Miss here is the bull in china shop…China! No crucial issues, no corruption in China…? They are far less opaque than Russia, so why no attempt to cyber-bully for nuggets of info…?

      • CFL68

        Nigeria lacks the ability to vaporize the world within 30 minutes, does not have a recent historical narrative of European occupation, is not currently anschlussing neighbors.

        • stranger

          Remember, Russia uses nuclear weapon to defend herself only! The military doctrine clearly tells that and allows using of nuclear weapon only in the case of nuclear aggression against Russia or conventional aggression against Russia when the very state existence is under thread, for example if hot heads in NAT0 decided to massively invade Russia from the borders and get to bomb moscow.

          So the easy recipe of a good sleep for you. Don’t go with a massive war against Russia and sleep well. That’s it, so difficult for you to abide to? That’s how it worked since 50s and until now, that is called “nuclear deterrence”, right. So NAT0 publically clamed to “deter” Russia, and we will deter NAT0 – excellent and no war. Otherwise you have nothing to worry about, the strategic missiles are in good and responsible hands.

          • Yuri

            True, Russia will take out large numbers of their own with their nukes. Like that test they did in 50s.

          • stranger

            Nuclear weapon is only for defense. That is the weapon of deterrence. May be only because of nukes we didn’t have a global war between US and USSR. Nowadays they unfotunatelly play the most important deterrence role again. Don’t worry there are a lot of quality nukes and they means of delivery and they are in responsible hands. Nobody is ever going to use them. Btw American military doctrine admits using of the first nuclear strike against any country, Russian is not.

          • Yuri

            Yes, as I said Russians used nukes on their own army. Totskoye was the place I think. Sad.

        • stranger

          “have a recent historical narrative of European occupation”
          But please note, not European and not occupation. Europe has never perceived as a military threat in Russia! Most known global foreign invasions to Russia was in 1812 by Napoleon and then by H1tler who subjugated and made to work for himself all Europe and many countries joined his forces, Finland, Baltics, west Ukraine, everywhere Jews were pursuaded. But Hit1er was never associated with Europe for russia. Europe is something pleasant, appealing, people of different cultures and history. That was never perceived as any threat.

          Historically USSR was the main rival to US and I can hardly say which side is more guilty for the confrontation. The possible threat if any ever, for Russian view, may come from NAT0 which always dances by US tune. Which is only US, but again, never Europe.

          And the occupation was only temporary as you know, every time whoever came with a sword was kicked out and his territory occupied.

          So nobody believe in a war with NAT0, but on the other hand, do you remember Yugoslavia, NAT0 didn’t stop to bomb Belgrade which was an act of barbarity in the center of Europe. If not for strategic nuclear forces any mad hot head from US generals who bragged so much to show Russia its place could have sent to bomb Kremlin, after Belgrade it doesn’t seem crazy.

          So thanks for Russian nukes to cool down mad heads of NAT0 generals we will enjoy peace in the global scale. And Russian love to Europe will always be unrequited… so is that story about unrequited love to Europe.

          • CFL68

            Yes and on this day in 1940 the Kremlin ordered the cold blooded murder of >20,000 captive Poles in another act of unrequited love. This was a few months after the start of their unrequited love affair with Finland that killed or wounded another 100,000 or so innocents – and to this day Russia still occupies Finnish cities including Viipuri.

            Dude you are so full of shit.

            Unrequited love. You confuse love with R A P E.

            Except for the point about Russia being able to defend itself. No one could ever invade and occupy Russia so the whole ‘Russia is under threat’ narrative you hear from Kremlin minions (as an excuse for Russian aggression) is unmitigated nonsense.

          • stranger

            CFL, you should come to see your psychiatrist, dude. Don’t wait too long, make an appointment tomorrow. Dude you are so full of shit.

          • stranger

            CFL You US generals openly threatened Russia during ever Obama. That’s why we need nukes to cool down crazy grey generals heads. So they barked but couldn’t bite. If not for that they would long ago decided to point strikes to moscow as they did in Belgrade in Yugoslavia in 90s.

            Those countries under German na3ists killed own Jews in mass numbers, Lithuanians, West Ukrainians who switched, everywhere the local Jews were pursuaded and killed with the passion and cruelty Htler na3ists could be jealous of. You don’t blame them for murders on ethnical ground. Finland helped Htler to blockade Leningrad, 1.5 years of hunger blockade. You advocate those countries again,

            You are just blinded by the hatred to Russia, dude. Go to see your psychiatrist, dude.

          • CFL68

            Sure got it. Great list of excuses. US generals under Obama threatened to invade Russia, the Germans still glorify Hilter, Belgrade showed its unrequited love to the muslims in Bosnia, and Finland invaded Russia, and of course those dirty polacks had it coming on way or another. Your history teacher was a real spetz.

            Wrap yourself in that warm cozy blanket of pretending everyone hates ‘Russia’ when in fact its just your stupid cynical policies and contempt for the truth from people like you. Claiming it is Russophobia is a great excuse. Stop being such a xuilo. Just try that.

          • stranger

            Moron, I’m saying that was ALSO in history and that you prefer omit one things in history and exaggerate others. As everybody of course, but in your case that is pathological russiphobia. Russophobia is diagnozed by the level of idiotism in your statements and ignoring reality from the side you don’t like it.
            The warm blanket in your case just wouldn’t help, just go to see a mental doctor. Everything I’ve told here was true, I was not lying to you, and so funny was to see your twisting as an eel on a hot fry pan when it came to the topics you didn’t like and didn’t want to admit, like Minsk agreements for example. Check yourself before blaming others, don’t be хуйло yourself. I don’t ever know such words, your Ukrainian friends taught you their bad manners, did they teach you “хто не скачет тот Москаль, ла ла ла ла” jumping all the time. Try to practice to become one of them, then you can come to a more advanced Ukrainian slogans “москаляку на Гиляку, москалей на ножи” repeat it until you are prisoned by police, because in your country in contrast to theirs the public threats with murder to an ethnical group are a crime.

          • CFL68

            Sure. The only problem anyone has is that Russia’s unrequited love for Ukraine has killed 10,000 Ukrainians and displaced >1M. Please stop. OK? Just get the fuck out of Ukraine. Make reparations. If you are sorry then say you are sorry sincerely and begin rebuilding bridges.

            It is not impossible. Look at Germany today. They have completely and utterly renounced and denounced their fascist history and are now a respected leading member of the international community.

          • stranger

            CFL, do you understand who German na3ists were? That they killed kids, women and elderies with special cruelty based on Jewish ethnicity? Do you understand that Lithuanians and west Ukrainians who served Htler and welcomed his rule against Bolsheviks killed Jews themselves with triple saddism and cruelty?
            When anything like that was in Russian history, you mother! Who gave you a right to ever compare Russian with na3ists? Especially since our countries had been fighting against na3ism together.

            How many people suffered in Crimea? One? That’s a lot, but cannot be compared to thouthands of own civilians which Ukraine consider genetically invalid and was killing from heavy weapon and aviation, blaming Russia all the time. If your bloody pastor, Turchinov, not even elected by anybody didn’t throw an army against own region, there would be no rivers of blood there, you mother How can you blame Russia in killing those people?! Blame you lame administration who inspired and made the coup possible. The first blood was shed at Maydan, and it was shed under the silent agreement of your administration. And the genocide in the eastern Ukraine is going under a silent agreement and military training by your countries. How is your fever brain blame Russia if Ukraine besieging Donetsk from the west and fire from heavy weapon to the city during acute phase without any targeting, if they continue to besiege, blockade and kill own people in own cities? Did Russia do that in your inflamed brains?
            You get f..k of Ukraine, stop supporting this criminal, nationalistic, lyiful regime, with blood on their hands.

          • stranger

            You would not get out that so easy. You promised Ukraine bright European future and deceived. You pushed Ukrainian nationalists to overthrow the president and closed the eyes on blood they shed. No common, pay Ukraine to the end of your days. You setup a puppet anti Russian government in Ukraine. So you build the bridges with Ukraine, you pay off the corruption of its leaders. Russia don’t need this burden any longer. Now you will donate Ukraine for all your life including the corruption surcharges if you want to keep Ukraine afloat and against Russia. That is your headache now.

          • CFL68

            Ukraine is big country with ethnic Russians all over yet the only war is where there are Russian warlords, fighters, tanks, etc., are in Ukraine killing.

            Keep telling your stories and imagine someone believes your bs.

            We all know Ukrainians are terrible humans just like everyone else, but the big difference is that while Russians are in Ukraine killing Ukrainians and making war, the reverse is not true.

            Its not.

            So we are left with the key variable of Russians in Ukraine killing Ukrainians as the cause of the problem.

            Your brain isn’t able to process these facts, but it is worth repeating: there is only war and death and destruction in the small sliver of Ukraine where Russians have crossed the border and made war.

          • stranger

            You are lying mother as usual. The first blood was shed on Maydan from the provocateurs and galitchina western Ukrainians who provoked armed provocations killing and injuring police, all under the silent appreciation of your administration. Not you started that, but you helped to spit Russia with Ukraine, to split people united by historical and relative ties. From you silent appreciation the your nationalistic government is killing own eastern Ukrainians at own region of Donbas. That are not Russian who kills Ukrainians, you son of a b1tch, you are just unable to realize that fact because otherwise you would have to drop your Russophobic accusations. The rebels, with the vast majority of them are locals, are defending their lands from the Ukrainian army of the tour new regime and barbarian, self subbordinated naona3istic Ukrainian battalions. The rebels are at their land they were born and grown up. The bastards who shell their living districts have came from the west of Ukraine, mostly galitsya, Ivano frankovsk and other west regions. That is not like Russians kills Ukrainian, you bastard son.
            You are unable to get it because your position would collapse as a dome of cards, if you were opened to the facts.

          • CFL68

            Stranger: “bla bla bla”

            Sorry no excuse for Russian aggression. Only Russia made war by taking the drastic step of violating Ukrainian borders and sovereignty annexing strategic territory and by leading and sustaining a rebellion in Donbass with thousands of fighters and tanks and financing, etc.

          • stranger

            Russians don’t kill Ukrainians. Your new nationalistic Ukrainian regime kills own eastern Ukrainians who opposed to the coup and to the forceful ukrainization. The vast majority of people fighting at Donbas are local to Donbas. From Ukrainian side. US, Canadian instructors train the soldiers of new regime how to better kill own eastern Ukrainians. Russia just limitedly support the people of Donbas.

          • CFL68

            Well ok then. Let Russia just provide transparent details at the Hague and I’m sure it will work out well since as you say its all well justified.


          • stranger

            And as I understand the American lethal weapon has already started to be supplied to the new regime. Obama made the last disgusting thing before retirement. The US and Canadian military trainers are working in the western Ukraine, to prepare Ukraine for a war instead of observing Minsk everybody is talking about. Your usual hypocracy again.

          • stranger

            US didn’t honer the decision of Hague in favor of Nicaragua. Everybody had to forget. There are means of enforcement against US other than a new worlds war which will evaporate you in 40 min.
            Will see what Ukraine presents to Hague and if the court takes it seriously.

          • stranger

            Russia will just close her markets to Ukraine, and you who promised Ukrainians bright European future and deceived will be ethernally support Ukraine and pay by its corruption bills, sustaining it anti Russian and not bankrupt like a suitcase without handle. Ukraine is your problem now, feed all their appetites indefinitely as Russia used to do in the past. Ukraine is no longer Russian burden, it is your burden now.

          • Daniel Romein

            Stranger and CFL68, can you stop with your private discussion here? Our comments are not meant for off topic arguments.

          • Daniel Romein

            Not very fair to blame only your opponent for a discussion, as I see the majority of comments here are from your side. I would like to ask you to comment less frequently, keep the comments shorter and stick to the point. And yes, there are others as well who do the same as you, so my request is not only addressed to you.

          • stranger

            Daniel, first of all why are you talking on behalf of Bellingcat? We thought there are just two employees there. Are you an author of only this article? Please introduce yourself.
            As for CFL, I understand my comments may seem rude for an outsider, but you need to take into account that that is the consequence of own more than 1 year “discussion” with that person. When I was polite and patient in the beginning, that person poured me with flows of personal insults, half lies and aggressive thrusts. Such rude language is not intrinsic to me I may hope. I have no problem to stick to a polite discussion.
            Indeed I think it is wrong to squeeze the discussion into the narrow path you are trying to impose on us due to your political preferences. Nevertheless, what I’m writing is noway irrelevant to the topic and/or a comment I’m answering to. If you don’t like what I’m writing, please be advised that some of your readers don’t like what you are publishing at this site, because the vast majority of your articles are a commercially targeted politicized singe sides accusations against Russia.
            If you are claiming most of comments are “on my side”, please recall how it was one-two years ago and the hordes of anti Russian “activists” here, bots, and immediate suppression of any “dissent” here by the flows of personal insults, and aggressive thrusts, bullying, everybody against one, against anybody who dared to disagree.
            Also, before teaching others… we asked you a set of question, and you answered nothing, you just ignored all the questions. I would appreciate if you were more open and honest with your readers.

          • Daniel Romein

            Stranger, if you would have taken the effort to have a look at my other publications, and many other publications, written by members of our team, you have known that Bellingcat has, apart from a few employees, about 20 volunteers and that I am one of them, since 2014. I don’t know about your 1-year discussion and I am also not interested in that. Our website is not meant for personal discussions and we want the comments to be related to the topic. We have the full right to delete all off-topic comments, but usually we don’t, because some people here are very sensitive and immediately start to blame us for censorship in case we delete their comments. As we sometimes get hundreds of comments to an article, I hope you realize we just don’t have the time to answer every single question. I try to answer questions related to the topic in comments to articles I wrote or contributed to, but we don’t have the time for endless discussions.

          • stranger

            Censorship is not your problem, except several particular cases. My major concern is your strict anti Russian and hence propagandistic bias. I see that you overplay with propaganda verses objective research too much. And you, or at least b/cat earn money by selling anti russian propaganda. That is a valid and appropriate question of mine, why are you so biased, who are funding you. You try to avoid answering for understandable reason. Everything else is less important.

          • Daniel Romein

            Since we mainly investigate MH17 and participation of the Russian army in the military conflict in Ukraine, this can give a wrong picture of our intentions. However, we try to be as objective as possible and our research is verifiable. None of the volunteers get paid.

    • stranger

      John, good advice, throw the sh1t of Massa Gessen to its the appropriate place at ones – to the toilet, not to stain and disgrace yourself or anybody else.


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