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Ukrainian Tanks in Avdiivka Residential Area

February 3, 2017

By Bellingcat Investigation Team

Translations: Русский

On February 1, Tom Burridge of the BBC shared a video on Twitter showing Ukrainian troops and tanks in what appeared to be a residential area in Avdiivka.

This video led to a significant reaction in Russian and pro-separatist news outlets, requiring answers to a few key questions:

  • What are the official responses to these accusations?
  • Where were these tanks and soldiers?
  • When were these tanks deployed in the area?
  • Were civilians still residing in the apartments near the tanks and soldiers?

Official responses

Initially, a representative from the Ukrainian military refuted reports of tanks near residential areas, saying that it was a “fake.” However, soon after, Ukrainian officials stated that the tanks observed in the residential of Avdiivka were not used, and only there as “reserves.”

Despite claims from Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokesperson Mariya Zakharova, the OSCE did note the presence of Ukrainian tanks in a residential sector of Avdiivka. In their daily report for February 1, the OSCE SMM to Ukraine noted that they observed “four tanks (T-64) parked behind a building in Avdiivka.” Though she claims that the job of the OSCE is to “not notice tanks,” a look at the daily OSCE SMM to Ukraine reports shows countless observations of Ukrainian military equipment, including those in violation of the Minsk agreements.

Where?

Tom Burridge was not the only journalists at the location, as it was a popular spot for local and foreign journalists covering the recent escalation.

Clearly, these tanks and soldiers were stationed in this residential block. Finding the location, on the southern edge of Avdiivka, is not difficult, as these apartments were subject of a highly publicized story from July 2015. This residential area took a direct hit from separatist artillery in July 2015.

We can conclude that the tanks were located near a group of residential buildings on the southern edge of Avdiivka, facing the Donetsk Airport. This area is just east of an area called the 9th Block (“kvartal”), and is positioned in a precarious spot due to its proximity to separatist-controlled territory.


When?

The videos and photographs of the tanks in Avdiivka’s southern residential area were taken on February 1 and 2, 2017. Satellite imagery from the previous two weeks show that there were no tanks near the apartment buildings, but two armored vehicles were present in the eastern part of the images. These same vehicles could be seen in a drone photographs on January 29 and February 2, as discussed below.

The self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic and its commanders provided two images from UAVs that they claim were shot on January 29, 2017 and February 2, 2017. The first image appeared on Strelkov-info.ru, originally from the DNR “Center of Drone Aviation.”  The image shows multiple armored vehicles, but no tanks. The location is the same residential block east of the 9th Block, facing south.

On February 2nd, Vostok Battalion commander Aleksandr Khodakovsky shared a drone image of the three tanks parked in the residential area.

The three tanks were recently deployed to the residential block, which has served as a type of headquarters for the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Additional armored vehicles were deployed at least two weeks ago. A trench is visible in the southeast corner of the imagery, showing that it has long been a military position. This trench is observable in satellite imagery going back to 2015, and is not a new development.

There were no artillery systems observed in the area, and no reliable reports of outgoing fire or staged attacks from the Ukrainian Armed Forces from this area.

Who?

Aside from journalists and Ukrainian soldiers, there were also civilians in this residential block. For example, a Reuters photograph from February 1 shows a woman trudging through the nearby residential block with a bag, just meters away from two Ukrainian tanks.

It is unclear how many people still live in these apartment buildings, but they are not completely deserted. The area has been militarized by the Ukrainian Armed Forces, seen in both the presence of armored vehicles & tanks, and the trenches on the southeast corner of the residential block. These actions have made the residential area — and the lives and properties of civilians — more likely to be attacked from separatist artillery fire, especially worrisome with recent unguided Grad missile attacks staged from Donetsk. However, there have been no recent reliable reports indicating that Ukraine has used this area for any outgoing attacks on separatist positions. Nearby apartment buildings, including one at Molodezhnaya 13 just down the road from parked tanks, have been hit by separatist artillery fire this week. There were also reports that the apartment building at Molodezhnaya 19, the neighboring buildilng to the one with Ukrainian tanks parked in the courtyard, sustained a direct hit by separatist artillery fire. Even if the residential buildings surrounding the Ukrainian tanks are not hit by artillery fire, the nearby buildings that may have more civilians still living in them can be struck from inaccurate artillery fire.

Apartment building at Molodezhnaya 13, near the 9th Block where Ukrainian tanks are parked, that was hit by separatist shelling. Source

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161 Comments

      • Feanor

        Ah, my bad. I was at work, and didn’t have time to give my full attention to the text. Either way, an interesting detail. Especially considering the claim that these tanks are “reserves”. Diana-mihailova on her livejournal also has photos showing shells being loaded into the tanks. So if these are reserves, they’re tactical front line reserves, ready to reinforce the infantry positions at a moments notice.

        Reply
  1. Andrea

    Similarly to what i said in the article about the GRAD attack:

    The presence of those military targets next to civilian areas puts civilians and civilian property at risk since “rebels” may decide to attack the tanks (legitimate military objectives).
    Ukrainians should either evacuate civilian structures nearby either retreat to a proper military zone.

    At the same time, if “separatist” commanders wants to hit those legitimate targets, they should use the weapons that cause less harm to civilians nearby. And this for sure should exclude artillery/mrls since this will cause collateral damage way worst than the expected military benefit given by destroying those few tanks.
    Since they don’t have more accurate weapons they should abstain to take military actions and instead proceed to contact OSCE. (this last sentence is actually a personal opinion)

    Reply
    • stranger

      What matters is that presumably violates the Minsk agreements for deescalation. Not exactly the question of military tactics.

      Reply
      • Andrea

        My considerations were about IHL (laws of war)…
        don’t want to take in consideration an agreement that everyone is breaching on daily base… 😉

        Reply
        • stranger

          Minsk is the most important agreement agreed by France, Germany, US, Russia, the rebels AND Ukraine. That is considered to be the only way out.
          Ukraine should implement the political part of Minsk. They escalate fire exactly because to avoid implementing it, so that people would say: what an agreement which nobody cares of, lets forget about it, the war is going on here.
          As for the Rules of War, great, so what? It depends how we apply them to this particular case. Ukraine not only keeps tanks and mortars in a living area, Ukraine also systematically destroys the city of Donetsk which is right on the front line. There are hundreds of thousands impacts inside the city only for the recent time, including heavy artillery and system of massive fire like Grads and Uragans. There are bombed hospitals and schools. Your press, nor the cats never ever tell you that.

          Reply
        • stranger

          Take a look at OSCE reports, you would see much more explosions impacts including the systems of massive fire (must be prohibited for use in densely populated areas) at the Donetsk side for the latest escalation of 27jan-2feb.
          It’s Amazing how the cats watched under microscope any hospital damage in Aleppo and closed their misaligned eyes on the much worse war crimes in Donetsk.

          Reply
          • Andrea

            Osce reports show how each faction is not giving a shiP about Minsk agreements.. thus better not to open that pandora box!

            Anyway, if you want i suggest you to go read the report from 25th Sept. 2015..
            In which they spotted a TOS-1 never supplied to Ukrainian army, thus must be coming from russia

          • stranger

            They want you to forget about Minsk. You see, the DNR doesn’t advance. Minsk would be the best solution for them because would allow to return to a peaceful life and still keep Donbas independent. The level of support of rebels at Donbas by local people is remarkably high.
            Ukrainian army on the other hand besieges the city, the front line comes right through the closest surbubs of Donetsk, Ukraine is crawling advance to a nobody’s territory and try to keep it and push the rebels back, but they have already set against the city, and no room for the rebels to retire. That’s why the fighting in going right inside the city.
            So, that violations are not the equal violations. First we need to understand who provokes them, and it seems mostly Ukraine.
            It would be beneficial for Ukraine to make everybody to forget about Minsk, which they signed when they needed it and then refused, because Minsk is not only the cease fire, it is the package of political transformations to leave Donbas finally on its own inside Ukraine. So far the Ukrainian tactic if any was with the support of the black president’s administration make Russia an unacceptable economical damage, so that Russia closed the border and isolated the rebels from its side. After which Ukraine would start a massive offence and eliminate all rebels and murder or prison all separatists who doesn’t support the new government. This plan obviously doesn’t work. Ukraine is in the stale mate as well as everybody else is. When it was beneficial to play good guys to call for the western support they did. Poroshenko promised always to implement Minsk and does it now. But he faced the parliament which would never do that. Ukraine army trained by US instructors and encouraged by the previous administration, wants to fight to the last eastern Ukrainian. Some time they may decide that the western support was a bluff, that they have nothing to loose and start a full a war with many losses military and civilian.
            I don’t know how Russia would react then. For Russia not to react would also mean to betray those people. Russia definitely helps the rebels because it turned out as the attack to some whatever “Russian world” by the Ukrainian nationalists who captured the power by violently overthrowing the former elected president and who hate all Russian and aggressively and forcefully push the other neutral and pro Russian Ukrainians away from Russia or whatever. And also a blatant undisguised attempt of the former black president’s administration to break up Russia with all its former and current allies, just slightly covered by ideology, and propagandistic and mythological east-west, democracy-autocraty conflict. Which is not. Russia considers the people of Crimea and Donbas as whatever belonging to the Russian language and culture or whatever. And consider all other Ukrainians as near relatives. Why the relatives kill each other – a diff question, not unusual in life, is it?
            On the other hand not everybody in Ukraine is a nationalist and many people consider that as their single country whoever is living there and they are ready to kill own other Ukrainians to keep the country and return self respect.
            That is not like somebody should win in this war, that is about resolving this conflict by some kind of a compromise to return to the peace. I understand you are watching this war as a computer game or a passionate football match.
            Hopefully nobody will escalate.

          • stranger

            And as for TOS, look the 31th report how the sides fired Grads and Uragans on each other’s, but the large densely populated city was only from one side.

          • stranger

            Sorry, one more thing, which seems amazing. As soon as the black master has left the while house, some mass media gradually started to realize. Foreign Policy unambiguously blames Ukraine for the “creeping offence” and conclude that there is almost no party of peace left there.

            foreignpolicy.com/2017/02/06/its-not-just-putin-fueling-war-in-ukraine-trump-donbas/?utm_content=buffera0f5c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

          • Andrea

            Man… the only ones who forgot about Minsk were the “rebels”, the russian soldiers fighting in regular units and their commanders (the real ones, the ones in Moscow): DEBALTSEVO

            The point of the TOS-1 is wether it is breaching minsk (it was actually not breaching minsk)… it’s that it is a weapon that MUST be from Russia… proving russian direct involvement!

            You can’t selectively call for minsk implementation once you’ve just ended spitting on the document itself while ink was still wet!
            The heavy weapons should be pulled back from Ukrainian side… but same MUST be done from Donetsk! MRLS in Donetsk CITY are just the same as MRLS in Adviivka: both breaching minsk agreements!
            You can’t selectively pick some OSCE reports because if you recognize them as trustworthy you then must confirm russian military presence in eastern Ukraine!

          • stranger

            Debaltsovo was a particular case and doesn’t mean the political part should not be implemented. After Debaltsevo, the cease fire was more or less observed, the sides were mainly separated apart, then according to Minsk should have been elections, then the special status to Donbas, and only finally closing the border. Ukraine has stuck at the item 4 – elections. We can catch on formalities and small details, but what is the most important to resolve the conflict is negotiate and implement the political package.

            For TOS, Russia seems to help rebels, that doesn’t mean Russian army is there. Neither contradicts to nor violates Minsk!

            I don’t selectively call for Minsk, I’m just saying the meaning and the essence of the agreement, what is most important and what is less, otherwise it would not work at all, never. Don’t forget that the rebels don’t advance, Ukraine use creeping offences to besiege the city and fire on it from all weapon types. Avdeevka is literally a suburb of Donetsk, 3km from the city line, good position for Ukraine to fire on the city.

            I don’t selectively pick some OSCE reports either! I didn’t tell it’s always trustworthy, but that is definitely one of the best sources of everything available to us. OSCE reports for 31 of jan showed that both sides used MRLS, but as you understand the big city of Donetsk was from only one side. If the rebels didn’t use heavy weapon from the city or vicinity, they simply were not be able to reach the same heavy weapon from the other side which terrorized the city. The front line comes right by the city line from the W, NW, cutting off Avdeevka from Donetsk. OSCE report also showed much more explosions at the Donetsk side than at Ukrainian, again, that is a dense city.

            Who uses selective picking up the evidences is obviously the belling-cats. How could they tell about Grads located at Donetsk and completely ignore why they are there and the fact Ukraine used the same Grads and other MRLS to fire on Donetsk! And ignore OSCE reports telling which side there were more explosions from! And told nothing about Ukrainian creeping offence, even though some western press is unambiguously pointed that out. And tell NOTHING about Minsk and peace process AT ALL.

        • stranger

          Because the Minsk agreements mean peace, forgetting about those agreements means the War up to the last eastern Ukrainian and western Ukrainian soldier. How many civilians they are yet to kill? 5-8 millions at least still are there. That is a dead end.

          Reply
          • Black Star

            Too bad Russia… er, the “rebels” have not followed the Minsk agreements at all.

          • stranger

            Ukraine constantly fires on densely populated city of Donetsk, systematically provoking in order to avoid implementation of their political part of Minsk agreements. The sides were more or less separated, it has been the time to accept political changes for already 2 years.

          • Black Star

            “Ukraine constantly fires on etc.”

            Yet you somehow see nothing wrong in Russia constantly firing at Ukrainian civilians, inside Ukraine no less. You have a very weak logical position to defend, and being dishonest does not help you one bit.

          • stranger

            “Yet you somehow see nothing wrong in Russia constantly firing at Ukrainian civilians, inside Ukraine no less.”
            Look at the map. There is a huge city of Donetsk with its outskirts about 30km in diameter, and the population of about 4 million citizens. There is a large territory to the west with open fields and small villages. The front lines comes directly touching the city from the west, so the city and everything to the east is under DNR control, everything to the west is under the government. Avdeevka is under the Gov control and is located in Donetsk region, just 3 km from the city line to the NE, almost Donetsk itself. Ukrainian army toughly besiege the city from the west occupying small nearby villages like Avdeevka. From Avdeevka they control by direct fire, an important road Donetsk-Horlivka everything at DNR territory. Moreover Ukraine systematically fires on the city of Donetsk w/o a target or a reason. Recently both sides used massive area fire like Grads and Uragans, but when Ukraine fire they target the densely populated city and are not very accurate. The retaliation fire comes to their positions in the open fields, inside the rare villages, partially unintentionally touching the villages. Ukraine is beseage the city and offence, not DNR. If the government gets out to the prescribed by Minsk distance, there will be no fire, because they will not be able to reach the city from there. The DNR has no space to retire, or move their city easterner, they are just besieged right from the city line.

          • Mr.Bushkin

            Quote: “Too bad Russia… er, the “rebels” have not followed the Minsk agreements at all.”

            It obvoiusly stuck on the 4th point, which is to be implemented by Ukrainian legislation since 2015, while a continuation of a violent re-integration chosen by Kiev is likely to be thwarted by whomever Kiev is fighting in Donbass.

          • Black Star

            I know Russian paid trolls are not allowed to read Wikipedia or any neutral information sources. But I can, and here is a short, very telling sentence from a story in Financial Times:

            https://www.ft.com/content/d1f20e84-ec56-11e6-ba01-119a44939bb6

            “Standing guard outside the shelled-out Avdiivka apartment block that has become a makeshift triage station, Serhiy scans the sky and listens nervously for the sound of artillery fire.

            “It’s like Aleppo,” says the Ukrainian soldier, referring to the war-ravaged Syrian city, as his unit works through sub-zero temperatures and freezing rain to ferry supplies to the emergency medical depot.

            Residents and soldiers stationed in the strategically important frontline town had got used to daily gunfire and mortar attacks in the three years since the conflict erupted between Ukrainian forces and Russian-backed separatists.”

            So: a neutral information source tells us life in a city ravaged by *daily* gunfire. How does that fit into the Russian propaganda about Ukrainian aggression? Especially since the city is inside Ukraine?

          • stranger

            Your article is under paid subscription. Give a link to a free copy please. That is amazing that they watch so closely the tiny Avdeevka which is almost Donetsk outskirts and completely ignore the big and densely populated city of Donetsk which Ukrainian artillery, mortars and grads/Uragans fired on from that Avdeevka. I said that the article in the Foreign Policy, not FT was very surprising to find in the flow of recent propaganda.

          • stranger

            Btw, it seems like you read the Russia branch of this site also? So you speak Russian, so Ukrainian. Ok that’s great, don’t tell about my bias then.

          • Black Star

            Just read it, it is free. Oh I forgot, you are not allowed to do that.

          • stranger

            What is free? Did you open your link yourself?? Maybe you have a subscription to FT, or you likely read it in translation and didn’t check the source? I’m not going to pay them to read your article, give a link to a free version if any, in Russian – ok:
            Subscribe to read:
            Battle for Avdiivka reveals bigger power game in eastern Ukraine

    • Mary

      Legitimate military objectives ??? How can an invasion of a sovereign country be legitimate- using this type of terminology legitimises war.

      Reply
  2. Notachance

    If they are reserves? Why does the writer also state they are in a precarious position due to its proximity to separatist-controlled territory?

    Reserves should not in theory be exposed. Also while both sides have apparently moved up heavy weaponry to the front lines, Bellingcat would be doing the wider world a favor, given their reputation for taking Ukrainian Government Points of view if they would evaluate the OSCE and other reports and provide where both the Russian/Rebels are firing their weapons from and to (landing of Arty), and the Ukrainian are firing their weapons from and to (landing locations). Then this combined with a map showing where concentrations on boths sides violate the Minsk agreements. This offensive was apparently a result of a infiltration of Ukrainian special troops to positions exceptionally close to Rebel positions and subsequent battles that occurred due to proximity of Infantry. When 2500+ rounds a day are shelled into Donetsk and this is ignored, much like the shelling by the Rebel forces of Aleppo East into Aleppo (larger) in the Western press the public is then as a result misinformed. This Avdiivka presentation is ignoring the larger picture of fighting across the lines of engagement across the front. Another thing Bellingcat could look at is if Poroshenko is actually profiting from the Arms business in his position of President of Ukraine. I understand about the Easter Culture of theft graft and corruption in Russia AND Ukraine; however, it will take a FEW (perhaps there are none) honest western publications to bring out or verify or disprove if Poroshenko is actually gaining more and more control and financial profit from the Ukrainian Arms industry and if he has moved from Chocolate to Arms. Since ANYTHING the East of Kiev is outright ignored in the western Press, Bellingcat may be one of the few firms capable of applying a review that is other than BAD RUSSIAN GOOD UKRAINIAN to the picture. In any case Trump actually does appear to have gut instincts to the danger of the uniformed vs the misinformed, and maybe when this apparent offensive by Ukraine, to destabilize the Russian/USA ‘RESET’ fails Poroshenko can disappear into history. My hope is someone with integrity will move up into leadership in Kiev (obviously Nadia Savchenko) who not being rich is unlikely to move up the oligarchical feeding chain to any position of leadership.

    Reply
    • Feanor

      He is definitely profiting. He owns Leninskaya Kuznya which is producing patrol boats for the Ukrainian Navy and he owns Mayak which is putting out defective mortars for the Ukrainian military (so far the Molot mortars have killed more of their own crew then of the enemy). He also owns Bogdan Motors, a bus and truck assembly plant, that’s been trying to push half-baked armored cars into the Ukrainian army.

      Reply
      • stranger

        First of all he depends on western loans and western attention as on breathing. The necessary picture for the western press is created by similar resources.

        Reply
      • Black Star

        You can only find the “defective mortar” story in the Russian controlled propaganda, for example RT. Strange, isn’t it, along with you quoting that propaganda word for word.

        Reply
        • Feanor

          Are you kidding? This is a well known story that’s been talked about by Ukrainian army personnel and volunteers. There are ample photos of the defective and shoddy mortars. There have even been confirmed accidents involving fatalities. If you can’t be bothered to do your research, why argue? Seriously….

          Fucking censor, a ridiculously pro-Ukrainian site, cites a service-member from the 72nd mech bde talking about it.

          Reply
          • Feanor

            You claim my evidence comes only from “Russian propaganda”. When I provide you a source that’s definitely not Russian you ignore it and call me a Russian troll.

            You’re not stupid. Which leaves malice as the only conceivable option. It really is too bad bellingcat doesn’t moderate the comments section.

        • Feanor

          The same censor has an interview with the factory itself, admitting that the issues the 72nd mech was having were caused by defects in the metal, and referencing the accident at Shirokiy Lan.

          Reply
    • Feanor

      Minor point, reserves can be at different levels. Operational level reserves will be in the rear in larger formations. Tactical QRF (quick response force) will be smaller and closer to the front line. These tanks, if they are indeed reserves, likely fall into the latter category given the relatively small unit size and their proximity to the front.

      Reply
    • Black Star

      You are telling us that Donetsk is receiving “2500+” rounds a day. If so, and knowing that OSCE is counting explosions in the area and not reaching that number with shots from *both sides* added together – we all know Russia is using more artillery than Ukraine Defence Forces – where do you get the extra explosions? From your imagination?

      Reply
      • stranger

        OSCE counts far more than 2500 shells per day. Including massive fire systems like Grad and Uragan firing on the city of Donetsk. See their recent reports for 27 Jan – 2 feb.

        Reply
        • Black Star

          Well, no. There were about 400 explosions inside Donetsk. You also, for some reason, fail to mention Grad fire *from* Donetsk. Putinist bias maybe?

          So again: where do you get your numbers?

          All numbers in here: http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/296961 You should actually read the OSCE reports, not make numbers out of your imagination.

          Reply
          • stranger

            No, please take a look at the appendix table of violations to the article by your list. I cannot count quickly, but there are far more blasts in Donetsk than 400, about several thouthands. And they also registered Grads and Uragans firing from Donetsk and to Donetsk. But don’t forget Donetsk is densely populated area standing in an open field all around and Ukrainian government moved so close to the city line beseaging the city. From any position far from Donetsk, DNR heavy weapon would just not be able to reach the similar Ukrainian heavy weapon located at different distances from the city and firing on the city w/o a precise target.
            I counted in excel the similar data for 1-2 of feb, it appeared about 3000 explosions (impact)+undefined explosions (90% of their explosions are undefined) at the DNR side and around 1000 at Ukrainian. But again, those data are not easy to interpret correctly and OSCE doesn’t even try.

          • Black Star

            Could you please actually read the information and study the numbers. It is very embarrassing when you are reading from a paper your bosses have prepared for you and there are glaring “mistakes”, in fact clumsy attempts at Russia propaganda.

          • stranger

            Intentionally for you I have reviewed the table associated with the article you posted. For the 1-2 of Jan I even spent my time to build a pivot table with the summaries by the similar tables from the other dates. Do it yourself, give us the numbers split by the type and weapon and ideally put on a map, which is difficult for me. I’m pretty sure of what I said.

          • Black Star

            Your tables are very strange, since they consistently fail so show any Russian aggression. Wonder why is that?

        • Black Star

          By the way, tell hello to your comrade Arya Stark next lunchbreak. I had quite a bit of fun reading his racist drivel against the Ukrainians.

          Reply
  3. Guy Dewaerheid (Belgium)

    It is time for Russia to invade Ukraine, there is nothing other to do. They have a big responsability in the conflict with the Minsk 2 resolution.

    Reply
    • Feanor

      I hope that was sarcasm.

      In all honesty, if this flare-up materializes into a real push by Ukraine, Russia will likely send units in but this is certainly not the time for a full scale invasion. Right now Russia needs to conflict to stay quiet so Putin and Trump can make a deal.

      Reply
      • stranger

        The deal between Putin and Trump would be a catastrophe for them. Many mass media already make such assumption that the current escalation may be intended to break up any possible normalization of relationships with Russia. It seems that propaganda machine they relied on is not able already to cover them. In the case Ukraine started provocations which is most likely.

        Reply
        • Black Star

          If so, these are very strange provocations, since they were met by a week-long well-prepared assault by the Russians… er the “rebels”.

          Reply
          • stranger

            What assault did Russians prepare? Give a link to a non Ukrainian source pls. Look also at the map please, Avdeevka is almost Donetsk’s outskirts, where Ukrainian army targeted the only road Donetsk – Horlivka everything completely at DNR territory. There are no cities to the west in the vicinity, Ukrainian army occupies Donetsk outskirts and fires to Donetsk from there. Rebels didn’t offence any Ukrainian territory, that is basically almost Donetsk itself, and most probably the Ukrainian “crawling offence” provoked the current escalation.

          • Black Star

            The one happening right now, the one you also have been writing about for the last week? Or is this just another “defensive assault” on the lines of, for example, Tshetsnian war?

          • stranger

            Don’t touch Chechnya, that is a separate big topic, I cannot tell in two words.

          • Black Star

            Ukraine and Tshetshnia are both countries suffering from Russian occupation.

          • stranger

            Look at Groznyy today and compare to it of the time after the Hasaviurt peace treaty, when Russia agreed on the Chechen independence. Btw recall how and from what the following chechen second war started. I said that is a big separate topic.
            Then look how much Russia gave to your motherland Ukraine during the times of USSR, building the colleagues with a strong science school, electronics, aviation, machinery, high tech factories. Then look where is that everything now? You dropped the relationships with Russia, high tech factories were closed w/o the demand, the largest cargo plane in the world AN Mria was sold to Chinese for pennies together with all technical construction documentation, the factory AN itself was stopped, bankrupted and the remnants separately given to military. When in the history before the coup did Russia do anything bad to you??

          • Black Star

            I can watch pictures of Grozhny pre-Putins assault and see a beautiful city. How many innocent civilians were murdered by Putins assault?

          • stranger

            Again, you don’t know and you don’t understand Chechen topic. Leave it alone. It is not possible to seriously discuss Chechnya here, it’s a really big separate topic. Just for you to troll maybe fine.

    • JK

      Then I guess it’s time for France to invade Belgium as there are so many radicals hiding there. Assinine reasoning. People are fighting for their freedom, you are harbouring terrorists.

      Reply
  4. Guy Dewaerheid (Belgium)

    It was no sarcasm, only something I think must happen to stop de people of Kiev under leading orders of ministry of defense and/or Turchynov. They won’t made any concession and prefer a full scale war to begin after the winter. They need the IMF money for the continuation of the war, they create a lot of actions giving it sense. Change the people before it is too late, but they would not change by themself, they are fueled by America, Uk, Germany and France. Remember that the Minsk 2 agreement was created just because Ukraine was loosing control. This is sarcasm. Hopely the Satan 2 missile will be ready soon…
    Putin could also decide to accept the republics and push back next negociations. Do you see any reason why Ukraine would do something positive ? Answer is no !!!

    Reply
    • stranger

      I believe US should restore the relationships with Russia, Germany should make it clear to Ukraine that if they continue sabotaging Minsk agreements, all European support will be withdrawn, sanctions will be applied to Ukraine and economy isolated. NAT0 should revoke own troops and instructors from the western Ukraine and make it certain they condemn any military solution. Ukraine is doing so because she is encouraged to do so, they think they would secure western support and make the Russia to suffer, by the escalation at Donbas. Sounds like a dream? Wait a little bit… 🙂

      Reply
      • Black Star

        Do you think using Russian army to invade Ukraine is abiding to the Minsk agreement? Or to any agreement at all, ever?

        Reply
        • stranger

          And did Maydan massacre and the coup follow any agreements? People uprose in Kiev, other people uprose in Crimea and then Donbas. In Mariupol the unarmed demonstrants were fired on and some killed by new Ukrainian army. Russia helped to organize the resistance, but didn’t fully scale interfered. Now the eastern Ukrainians are fighting Ukrainian army who shells them in their homes every day.

          Reply
          • Black Star

            By Maydan massacre you men the massacre of 100 civilians by special troops, ordered by Janukovitsh? What kind of leader is fit to lead after massacring his own people? Except Putin of course 🙂

          • stranger

            The demonstrants started to injury and kill police trying to capture the administrative buildings, from fire arms, still unknown snipers killed the protesters and police at the same time. Maydan was standing for 3 months, Yanuk pressed by Nulland didn’t touch anybody, even when the crawd captured buildings killed one security guy, injuries police by Molotovs.
            And when the self appointed leaders came to the power by the president overthrow they started to fire from rifles to other demonstrants already in south-east, they threw army to kill everybody at Donbas who oppose them. More than 10000 is already dead in this pointless civil war…

          • Black Star

            Why are you constantly attempting to tell Russian propaganda to a when I have clearly stated that I both recognize it immediately and do not believe a word of it?

          • stranger

            Obviously, because that is true. I don’t watch any “Russian propaganda” I rely on videos I saw myself. You just have a block defending you from accepting reality 🙂

          • Black Star

            Oh, and this: “More than 10000 is already dead in this pointless civil war…”

            Care to do an estimation as to how many of these ten thousand were murdered by Russians with russian weapons? Please do not answer with zero.

          • Black Star

            ” I rely on videos I saw myself.”

            This is very strange. You have previously stated that you do not watch Russian television. That was your defence to why you do not oppose the propaganda in Russian television.

            So what videos are you watching then really? They cannot be those filmed by Russian television, and you state that Ukrainian sources are not honest. Do you have your own special news service?

            Also, basing your worldwiev (in reality of course, we both know that you are a paid troll, so all you state about your sources are lies) on videos is very, very shallow thing to do 🙂

          • stranger

            I watch the videos of witnessers made directly at the place of events. I watch the interviews with key political figures from the first hands. Sometimes OSCE reports. Read Facebook of the immediate participants living in Ukraine or local people who’s left Ukraine. Read western press, must confess more frequently in translation, but check the source if doubt, if it is in English.
            You probably know about me more than I know myself… 🙂 That is probably in your personal reality. 🙂
            I’m paid but not for this, I have a technical education, speciality and job.
            If I were a specialist in this sh1tty staff, I’d try to manipulate you and be more careful and manipulative in my posts, right? While I’m direct and honest to the best of my understanding. And I’m always ready to provide you my sources at the first demand.

          • Black Star

            Yet you somehow manage to see only the witnesses that comply to your pre-made Russian propaganda version of events. Do you have a selective memory, or were you not allowed to watch anything else except Russian propaganda videos?

          • stranger

            Give particular videos or facts you want us to see. Otherwise that is just bla bla bla

          • Black Star

            Oh now it is us who need to show you evidence, when you earlier claimed that you have yourself watched the videos?

          • stranger

            Again, you blamed me in selective versioning. Up to you to prove your accusation with facts. If none, then you just don’t understand what you are saying yourself.

        • Mr.Bushkin

          Quote: “Do you think using Russian army to invade Ukraine is abiding to the Minsk agreement? Or to any agreement at all, ever?”

          The really funny stuff is, that all conclusive evidence presented by the Ukrainian officials consists of Russian passports, which Russian servicemen have to give away for the duration of their duty and to use military ids instead.

          Reply
    • Black Star

      Would you made concessions if your home country, Russia, was invaded by a foreign power?

      Reply
    • Black Star

      You hope for another nuclear missile system, costing billions for the already devastated Russian economy, to scare free countries from supporting Ukraine in its defensive war against Russia? Russians must be feeling desperate 🙂

      Reply
      • stranger

        Nuclear weapon is a deterrence, they are produced to never use. Other countries are already very tired from Ukraine, they start to understand what is actually going on and how they have been deceived for so long time.

        Reply
        • Black Star

          What other countries? Why are you attempting to push more Russian propaganda with zero facts to back it up when you know already I both recognize it immediately and do not believe a word of it?

          Reply
          • stranger

            Wait, I give you my sources unless it is a common sense. Actually I write not only exactly for you to believe or not believe, and mostly even for myself.

          • stranger

            The fan of Russia, from Moscow. You always confuse Russia with Putin. About ‘far right activist’ I have no idea what you are talking about and don’t care about your cliches living only in your mind.

          • Black Star

            Our mr. “Stranger” is a Russian paid troll who has among other things claimed that he does not watch Russian television and so does not know about propaganda in Russian television. Still he keeps crying about how evil and biased western media is. I really wonder who he thinks he is fooling. Maybe nobody and his job is simply to destroy any meaningful discussion.

          • stranger

            I was born in Moscow in the second generation of Moscovities and lived in Moscow for more than 30 years. Right now I’m living outside Russia. Even for the last years in Russia I didn’t watch the TV. The flow of lie and dirt in the western media for the last three years against Russia, with the peak at Clinton’s election campaign which epic failed, was tremendous and really shocking. No any objectivity, no any truth, no any journalism with rare exceptions.

          • Black Star

            … and here the story of mr. “Stranger” changes once again. How is weather in Moscow today, comrade?

          • stranger

            What have changed, my dear Black Star? So far I have never said I’m not living in Russia now. Why should have I, that is nobody’s business. But I have always been saying that I’m Russian and was born in Moscow.

    • stranger

      西班牙人,没有人相信你,只是从加泰罗尼亚和巴斯克地区出去!对所有被压迫的国家的自由!

      Reply
    • stranger

      Not everybody speaks English here and you make up to read Spanish. Which might be a great idea to learn, but Chinese is more prospective. Even via the google translate for now. 🙂 ))))))

      Reply
    • stranger

      I’ve just mirrored what the commenter said but in diff language, via google translate. You have translated correctly.

      Reply
  5. Mad Dog

    Stranger! I really can’t agree with you on the “flow of lies and dirt on Russia” thing. Most of the stuff I have seen are not lies. A lot of the stuff you see in the news is also back-up here with some very well thought out and comprehensive investigation of open sources. I guess you feel it is all made up and fed to us based on some hidden agenda from some hidden source (Jews, George Soros, Russian ex-pats, Hillary Clinton, etc.) but the evidence is far too overwhelming. Now we have another dissident getting sudden organ failure, another one being convicted of embezzlement (ya really have to laugh at that one, considering how much embezzlement goes on between the cronies of Putin an normal Russians), etc. Of course you have an excuse for all of this…Russian ex-pats are sleazy, the dissidents just have a lot of enemies, the cyber-Mayor of Moscow is really a big time crook (one payment of $50,000….maybe), but that blinds you to the corrupt government you always seek to defend. Be a fine Russian, join the ranks of dissenters, bring Russia back to its rightful place in the world, a place that would be a magnet for folks looking for a better, creative life.
    So, how do you like your ex-pat life?

    Reply
    • stranger

      Well, I’ve said my position numerous times, I have no idea what to add or repeat. Briefly, what is now being conducted against Russia as a country is not intended to help Russia become a better place. Corruption is just a separate problem. You would not be going to cure headache with guillotine. For expat let me address you to your own answer, when I asked about your private life. You weren’t ever surprised, were you? I thought you would “read me a moral”.

      Reply
    • stranger

      “Now we have another dissident getting sudden organ failure”
      Ok, you must know all that caseses very well, let’s add more details.
      The “dissident” who fell with some kind of poisoning some long time ago, got better, and now fell with exactly the same symptoms. The best doctors he could hire, were not able to find a reason? Do you think if he was wanted to be poisoned he would. How to explain the second “poisoning” after like an year or more and exactly the same picture, and bless him god, a recovery.

      “another one being convicted of embezzlement ”
      You know the court case of Navalny with Kirov-forest. How would you explain and justify how Navalny, being serving in the regional administration as an assistant of the governor Belykh, managed to earn that million on Kirov-forest? Oh no, corruption?!

      “Be a fine Russian…” :)))) I’m fine, thank you 🙂

      Reply
  6. Andrea

    stranger – February 6, 2017
    And as for TOS, look the 31th report how the sides fired Grads and Uragans on each other’s, but the large densely populated city was only from one side.
    __
    You don’t understand: shooting an artillery salvo from a densely populated area hoping no retaliation will take place is actually using civilians as human shields!
    Military targets (artillary, MRLS, tanks…) should NEVER be in a densely populated city! If they are in a city then the options are
    – civilian flee the city
    – civilians ask to move away the military targets
    If none of those happens the enemy is free to engage the military targets in civilian area as long as he’s following the principles of DISTINCTION (of military from civilian) NECESSITY (if the targets are worth the risk of collateral dmg) and PROPORTONALITY (don’t use a nuke to destroy a tank).

    LEARN MORE HERE vvvvvvvvv
    https://app.icrc.org/elearning/en/ihl/index.html

    E.G. Next to my house, in the center of a big city, there is an air force command with barracks… if a war would start i’m aware i may become a collateral damage due to the location of a military target next to me!

    Reply
    • stranger

      No, you don’t understand, Ukraine fires with MRLS on the city of Donetsk. If you compare what is more terrible to fire from the city (actually abandoned lands inside the city, like 500m or so from the buildings) or TO the city! Formally both violates, you can refer to formalities, but in fact not EQUALLY. Why Ukraine ever fires on the city from MRLS?? The rebels don’t advance, Ukraine comes close to their city and starts fire. No ANY WAR should be there, they MUST be working on the implementation of Minks especially in political part. That is not like a war on the rules, that is like stop the civil war and start negotiate! You try to catch on formalities but only the essence of what is going on matters. Nobody has even announced a WAR for all this time!
      Btw, the belling-cats first called their recent article ‘a human shield’ but then after some consultation realized that formally it is not and renamed the article.

      Reply
      • Andrea

        You wanna debate on who fired the first rocket? Really? Does this matter?

        You are totally free to fire rockets 200m from a civilian structure in a crowded city… BUT
        #1 those MRLS shouldn’t be there (violate minsk)
        #2 you show up a military target in a city and I, as your enemy want, to destroy that target since you keep using MRLS creating an actual danger for all my citizens! Thus i have the right to launch a strike aimed at those MRLS, wether deployed on filed wether stored unloaded in any other place… maybe i miss and i kill a poor kid and his family in their car going to the church… The fault is YOUR for having put that child in danger by giving me a target!

        And, BIG SURPRISE, the one violating IHL (and minsk) is YOU, not me! (even tough to retaliate i had to use MRLS and infringed minsk too). Because you didn’t fulfill the principle of DISTINCTION.

        If they had time to capture Debaltseve while they were signing minsk agreements… they can certainly wait now… and if they keep using MRLS in a place that violates Minsk why the hell should i trust in their desire to fulfill those agreements!

        PS: where does your knowledge on IHL comes from?

        Reply
        • stranger

          Wait, look. Not who fired first but who intentionally continue to escalate in order to avoid their responsibility on Minsk!
          Once Ukraine pulled the heavy weapon up to Donetsk, rebels should have pulled theirs because otherwise the city would have been destroyed by Ukraine, nothing to reach those fire points. Correct?
          Then what a military target inside the city? Nobody announced a war! A war with Russia was never announced! The civil war neither. Just ATO, no any war.
          Then do you really think that you may fire on all the city massively w/o a precise target just because the heavy weapon is spotted in the city? Why Ukraine just don’t pull back all heavy weapon to the allowed by Minsk distance?? There would be no fire, because nobody would threaten the city of Donetsk. The rebels want Minsk to be implemented and would not provoke, why do they need that?
          Do you really think that the presence of heavy weapon creates a threat to the citizens, but not firing on the city massively w/o a target??

          Reply
          • Andrea

            I can’t understand what’s the point around war declarations/ato/civil war…

          • stranger

            Officially it is not called a war. IHL of course must be applied by default. But both sides violate it and inevitably will violate if the military clashes continue.

          • Andrea

            The fact it is not officially a war but an “ATO” means nothing…
            Is it an armed conflict?
            YES
            Then IHL is current!
            (get informed about IHL or stop speaking about it…)

          • stranger

            Ok, why do you blame only one side in IHL violation and ignore the other?? I’m sure both will have to violate if they continue fighting in the violation of signed agreements!

          • Andrea

            Did I?
            Look where we are commenting and my first comment on this article…

          • stranger

            Ok, both sides, I see. Still the firing on densely areas cannot be justified. The fire brings the danger to civilians, not the presence of weapon there.

          • Andrea

            Can’t in your fantasy world… can in this one…
            (and look at the mess they did in Aleppo for example)

            Military targets bring danger to civilians. Since they allow fire to be directed in an area where civilians are also present!

          • stranger

            Are are becoming a little bit rude, please control yourself.
            For Aleppo, why don’t you apply the same standards to Donetsk??
            Think logically the fire is what put civilians in danger, the military scrap metal until it fires is not!
            If the “moderate rebels” in Aleppo were negotiable, there would be no fire. The rebels in Donetsk are and moreover the agreement has been already signed, it just left to implement.
            So difficult to understand? Really

        • stranger

          “why the hell should i trust in their desire to fulfill those agreements!”
          Nobody trusts nobody there. That is not a matter of trust! That is the series of agreed actions under the full monitoring and control of the 3rd party observers.

          Reply
          • Mad Dog

            In Aleppo the Russkies and the Syrian thugs blew the place to hell, massive destruction. Please show us similar scenes from Donetsk. Also, please do not leave out all that artillery fire coming from across the border In Russia.

            And yes, it is very easy to re-poison someone, especially when it is close to election time. All of this is just a coincidence, right? I think you are blind at times and yes, that is to the detriment o Russia and Russian citizens.

            And as for Navalny, this is just a fairy tale. His trial in 2013 was a fairy tale and no evidence was ever presented. he was being accused by local magnate accused of insider trading, no profit was ever proven. Basically no facts, but the prosecutors wanted a minimum 6 years, just enough to keep him out of the election. This is shades of 1937. This so-called trial was found in violation of his human rights (rightly so) and your Supreme Court overturned the verdict. he will be retired in Kirov, just in time to keep him out of the election. Another coincidence. Sorry, you are really blinded by the lies that spew out of the Kremlin and when people take issue with that offal you cry foul! None of this is a coincidence and you are right to be out of the country because people as outspoken as you will sooner or later be caught up in the mess….just like in Stalin’s time (yes, the parallels are striking) Are you gay? Are you against Putin? Are you upset about corruption? Are you okay with non-slavs working in Moscow? All of these things and more could get you in real trouble. Those thugs do not deserve your support.

          • stranger

            Here you go:
            yandex.ru/images/touch/search?text=донецк%20после%20бомбежки&parent-reqid=1486698033262960-542187053526355776455128-sfront3-021-TCH&p=0&source=wiz
            The distance between Donetsk and the nearest Russian border is about 60km. No artillery would reach, at least to our latest escalation site.

            Kara-Murza is called an opposition activist, but really, nobody ever has heard about him and his activity other than those 2 “poisoning” times. First time the doctors said he presumably was poisoned by antidepressants he was taking, the second time they said nothing so far. It is ridiculous to think the doctors in the best private Moscow clinics are controlled by FSB. Please note that there is another force besides “Putin”, opposing him and fighting for the power in Russia. For example from what we know that might be the mister Kh. Somebody might be not dangerous for the government (really how can Kara Murza be??) but useful as a sacred victim to blame the government. Those 3 first mysterious murders at Maydan? As well as Litvinenko+Berezovsky, Nemtsov. Just a possibility, I cannot claim that, just we cannot automatically blame the government if there are other mighty and deadly interested parties. Again, just a theoretical version, why not?

            As for Navalny. There are two prospectives. Firstly the govs really don’t want to see Navalny at the elections as well as let abroad. The court case against him was preintended no doubts. The court verdict is also careful and serves its purpose. He was given so called “conditional sentence” for 5 years and 5 years of “probations”, without enprisonment. That would not allow him to participate in the elections, but would not cause too much protest.

            But back to Kirov-les (lumber of Kirov) there was some kind of a crime (corruption) indeed. The sentence may not be fair, but he is not crystal clear himself. Afaiu, Navalny officially served as a government official (!) in the role of an assistant of another oppositioner, who was proposed a position of Kirov Mayor (governor). As a representative of the governor he tried to pursue and pressed the private commercial lumber factory director to make them not to sell the lumber themselves, but only via a preselected lumber distributor. While Navalny was a friend of the director of that distributor, presumable afaik created from the scratch. They made Kirov-les to sell them lumber for 10 mil or so, and resold it themselves for 11 mil. So they earned 1mil rub by administrative pressure to a private commercial company. Which is a canonical definition of government corruption. Agree, not billions as others. I don’t know if the Kirov administration had any share in the factory. So not a fairy tail, but an unproportional and predefined sentence, comparably soft though.

            Navalny anyway would start own presidential campaign unofficially, but there would be more means of pressure on him. But I’m not sure Navalny is going to became a president. His aim is more like serving as a battering-ram, to swing the protest and clear the way for another candidate from the opposition, whom we may not even know yet. Hardly it would be Kasyanov, though they tried this combination earlier.

            I have questions to Navalny. Firstly it would be great to understand where does he take rather huge money for his above average life style, his work time and his company debunking corruption and is not profitable and his campaigns. Just donations would hardly explain that. Who are the major contributors to donate. That is a closed information. Second his energy is pointed to the destruction of the “regime”, I can hardly imagine what constructive he may propose, other than his usual blatant populism and general words. Once he claimed: “when I will be a president, the salaries will be higher and prices lower” well, a kindergarten, shtany na lyamkah (rus).

            So I think on him controversially, and carefully.

            I didn’t left Russia on politics at all. I was looking for a better job opportunities, but I still love Russia, my dad gave me that attitude in my childhood, I just cannot appreciate “slanderers” (see Pushkin lol 🙂 of Russia…

          • stranger

            “Are you gay? Are you against Putin? Are you upset about corruption? Are you okay with non-slavs working in Moscow? All of these things and more could get you in real trouble.”

            Well one can an open gay in Russia, that is not pursued, they can and do coming outs publicly. What is prohibited is propaganda of homo, like the gay marriage, gay parades, children books, dedicated tv programs etc. compare to Saudi Arabia’s laws!!

            One can be against Putin and many and many publicly are, unless, you call for a violence against a ethnical or social (a bit vague) group, to the collapse of the country, separation of territories, to the unconstitutional change of the power, and child pornraphy of course.

            Non-slavs in moscow is a diff song. Take a look, that is all Moscow, you will be shocked if you didn’t see it previously:
            yandex.ru/images/touch/search?text=кубан%20бай%20ран%20москва
            There are really a lot non-slavs in moscow, mostly Islamic former republics, all other Asian republics, Vietnamese, many Chinese (usually trading), starting from street cleaners and builders up to a large rich businessmen and criminal authorities. For a lot of remarkable muslims Moscow is becoming a Moskvabad. Sometimes there is routine racist attitude and not only from Russians, but fortunately the cross ethnical conflicts are rare, probably rarely than blacks-whites in US, since there are few ethnical enclaves. Some immigrants behave rude, but far not what we saw recently in Europe where refugees of a diff culture openly terrorized women in the streets. In average Russians are very tolerant. Nobody pursue the migrants other than sometimes cops earn money on them if their migrant document are out of order. They tend to release them for 500rub ($9) may be the fees are higher now.

            “Those thugs do not deserve your support.”
            Yes, that is the major problem. You assume it will be better shall we remove Putin. That is not necessarily. And moreover the risk to roll back to evil 90th, the collapse and local wars, is higher. It can be much and much worse. Hopefully not, I’m not saying I can predict future. In this instability it is better to save what we still have and not risk to destroy everything once more. We remember as Bolsheviks destroyed a great country in 1917, under the great and just mottos. Then liberal democrats destroyed the great country again in 1991, under similar even more great mottos. So that we just have recovered somehow. It is enough revolutions for Russia, really. Populistic mottos would bring us to another catastrophe. But I don’t insist on my opinion, there may be others.

          • stranger

            Also Navalny formally has a license of a lawyer, but nobody has ever heard about his important cases or grateful clients. His full time job is his company looking for and exposing corruption, obviously non profitable company. It is interesting who pays for the party…

          • stranger

            Concerning Navalny and his court trial on Kirov-les (lumber). I’ve checked, the friend of Navalny registered his own new distribution company on 18 march 2009, and just in a month 15 April made a contract with Kirov Les on selling its lumber via him. They proposed the factory the prices below market and immediately resold the lumber, probably just on paper, to the final customers. Navalny as an assistant of the governor, worked with Kirov-Les to sign this unprofitable contract with The classical one-day, “gasket” company. Maybe Navalny tried to help this company to sell anything, but there were clearly the conflict of interests. That’s why this case in ambiguous, but not clear, at the edge of the law. Funny that the director of this firm was later pursued in a court for embezzlement too. I believe not only the prosecuted director witnessered against Navalny trying to switch the responsibility presumably.

          • stranger

            “Are you okay with non-slavs working in Moscow? ”
            Do you know that your favorite Navalny some time ago publicly announced a thesis: “it is enough to feed the Caucasus” meaning the federal budget spends too much money on Chechnya? And against Chechinazation of all Russia and Moscow particularly. Trying to play the racistic card. Exactly as you are saying. So who is against non-Slavs really? But he shut up this thesis very soon, because that obviously was too much.

    • stranger

      Because they formally have already signed the peace in Minsk. What WAR formally is allowed after that, even by the rules of war??

      Reply
        • stranger

          Again Minsk is not simply a cease fire, it is NOT! Minsk is the political transformation to conduct elections, give an autonomy to Donbas and by doing so end this pointless 3 year civilian conflict which took more than 10000 lives so far.
          The IHL – Perrrfect, but how to stop this conflict? Killing people according to the rules of war is better that killing people not by the rules? What’s the difference, just stop it, you have signed the peace!

          Reply
          • Andrea

            … 0.o …
            And who said minsk agreement is simply a ceasefire?
            Ceasefire was point 1…
            and for what we daily see hostilities are far from ceased…

            Hell YEAH!! Killing peoples against the IHL is a WAR CRIME!!!
            I’m not encouraging any killing… I’m just trying to let you understand that ukrainian army can have a justification to shell donetsk city as long as there would be military targets in it!

            Please be accurate… a ceasefire is NOT a peace treaty!

          • stranger

            The cease fire WAS mostly observed until the resent escalation most probably by Ukraine! There was plenty of opportunities to move further than item 1 and still are.
            There were NO justification for Ukrainian army to fire on the city! Moreover in the violation of signed agreements. WHY do you think that pointless firing on a densely populated city is not violating IHL?? They don’t target only grads, they cover all the city!
            Again so you claim that killing people against IHL is a war crime, then how would you call killing civilian people by IHL – just a murder? What’s the difference? Look at the essence of the events, not formalities. And don’t apply IHL to only the one side, and close the eyes on the other

          • Andrea

            Justification to fire on city is provided the presence of military targets in the city !
            Is it so hard to understand?
            I never said that firing pointlessly isn’t breaching IHL… did i? But you have to prove it was pointless… and that’s quite hard behind a keyboard…
            You shouldn’t kill civilians according to IHL… you should avoid it… if you respected IHL but ended up killing civilians this means those unlucky guys are collateral damage, that should always be avoided but that don’t constitute a war crime…
            What are you talking about?!?! read my first comment!
            I applied IHL in this article saying that ukrainian tanks next to civilian buildings in adviika may allow “””rebels””” to fire on them!

          • stranger

            You can look at OSCE reports and see how several thouthands explosions were registered PER DAY at the side of Donetsk as well as Ukrainian MRLS firing ON the city (and rebel’s outwards) MRLS by definition is not precise weapon. It is intended to destroy enemies infantry, vehicles and everything at the large area. That is the war crime. I believe Ukraine had no right to fire on the city, at least the moral right because for the sake of civilians there that couldn’t have been justified, maybe only from Kievs political ambitions.
            The Minsk was not a cease fire, that is just the first item. Minsk is intended to resolve, how can it be called? Formally maybe not a peace treaty, factually is.
            IHL is great, I’m just saying it is not an answer here. Because according to IHL they must continue to destroy the military vehicles in the living areas, collaterally killing civilians according to the laws of war. The next step, you would say Ukraine has a right to apply the violence at own territory.

          • Andrea

            Go tell the peoples in Aleppo who had or had not the “moral” right to do what happened…
            They CAN contnue… and doing that they MUST be sure they are following IHL in order not to commit crimes…

          • stranger

            Andrea unfotunatelly for you, you are nobody to tell Ukraine that they can or should continue killing own citizens. There is Minsk, that is the law, it must be implemented!
            Amazing, Russia is calling for a peace and stop killing civilians from MRLS and you all call for a war and continue the killings! Don’t you find it strange? Why did you sing the other song in Aleppo? And now ignore bombing schools and hispitals in Donetsk???
            Justifying by the rules of War. No war! Relax, make love not war!

          • Andrea

            I’m not calling for war! where did i???
            I’m just pointing out what is allowed by IHL !

            If they want to “play the game” each party must follow the rules!

            If russia didn’t want civilians to die from MRLS there was a very simple way to stop it: stop resupplying the “””rebels”””!! (breaching the one you call “law”).
            Pull out their soldiers (another point of your “law”).

            I’m talking about Aleppo cause it’s the perfect example of how russians are bombing civilian areas claiming they hide military targets! It’s just the same shiP… Just with reverse parties… Now, if you are against those bombings on donetsk city you must condemn as well the bombings (with cluster bombs) on Aleppo (and way many other zones) otherwise it’s pure hypocrisy !!

          • stranger

            “If russia didn’t want civilians to die from MRLS there was a very simple way to stop it: stop resupplying the “””rebels”””!! (breaching the one you call “law”).”
            That would not stop civilians to die because would provoke Ukraine to start a full scale war and kill many more civilians on this way. Minsk demands to revoke of all foreign weapon only as on of the last items. Btw American weapon and instructors are also covered by this requirement.
            
”Pull out their soldiers (another point of your “law”). ”
            There are few soldiers if any, the majority of resistance are locals. Minsk also demands that as one of the last items.

            “I’m talking about Aleppo cause it’s the perfect example of how russians are bombing civilian areas claiming they hide military targets!”
            Ok. First of all, why do you think there were no military targets there? How about armed “oppositioners” combined with jihadists? Who fired from the city, who prevented civilians to leave the city?

            “Now, if you are against those bombings on donetsk city you must condemn as well the bombings (with cluster bombs) on Aleppo (and way many other zones) otherwise it’s pure hypocrisy !!”
            But I can tell exactly the same to you! If you condemn bombings of Aleppo, you MUST also condemn the bombing on Donetsk (massively using heavy artillery, aviabombs, MRLS) and all other Donbas!
            The difference is that there were a lot of western agents in Aleppo who provided only the expected picture from there, only advocating one side and blaming only the other. All western mass media including Bcats as a small bolt, washed the “rebels” disguised jikhaddists white and blamed Russia. In Donbas they again do they best to only blame Russia but the situation is mirrorly the opposite. Do you really buy that??

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