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What OSINT Tells Us About the Bakery Bombing

December 1, 2015

By Christiaan Triebert

saraqib

Verifying the location using four different sources, that will be discussed below. Clockwise: photo of Eye on Homeland, still from ‘Syria Yahia’ video, Google Maps screenshot, still from Step News Agency video.

Videos of airstrikes targeting an alleged bakery in Syria’s Idlib Governorate sparked heavy debates on social media. The Turkish Humanitarian Relief Foundation (İHH) said it manages the bakery with funding from the Qatar Charity. This article examines what we can and cannot know so far about the airstrikes, using open source intelligence (OSINT). It establishes several certainties, but also leaves us with several questions.

In short:

  • The building is called al-Wazīr bakery
  • It is located near al-Duwaīr, roughly six kilometres north-east of Sarāqib
  • The building has been hit before by airstrikes; this contradicts with İHH’s ‘first strike’ claim
  • The bakery was not operational from Oct. 15 to at least Oct. 20, 2015
  • No new buildings have been constructed at the compound for at least 11 years

What happened?

According to Hüseyin Oruç, the vice president of İHH, jets of the Russian Air Force first targeted positions near the building as a warning before bombing their ‘bread bakery’ on November 29, 2015. Due to the warning there were no casualties, he said in an interview with TRT World, but claims the coordinates of the bakery had been communicated to Russia through the United Nations (UN). Another İHH offical told Al Jazeera there were at least “20 missiles […] dropped by four Russian warplanes.”

That’s the account of İHH. Let’s have a look at the videos that appeared on social media to see what we can derive from them. The first video was uploaded the YouTube account ‘Syrian Yahia’ and shows two strikes on the building. Notice that you can see the first bomb or missile at 0:16.

The second video was uploaded to YouTube by Step News Agency and seems to show the direct aftermath of the strikes.

Judging from these videos, we can be sure at least two airstrikes hit the (compound of the) facility. However, we are not able to verify whether it was the Russian Air Force. The Russian government has not yet reacted on the allegations by İHH.

What is evident, is that the first strike hit close to the tall structure part of the building, while the second strike hit closer to the lower building. Both İHH and Qatar Charity tweeted photos of the alleged destruction within the building.

strikes

Where did it happen?

Using the videos and their descriptions, it is relatively easy to find the exact location of the building. The compound is located near a hamlet called al-Duwaīr (الدوير), according to Wikimapia, roughly six kilometres north-east of Sarāqib, a city in Syria’s Idlib Governorate.

Map showing the filming locations of the bombing of a bakery near Saraqib, Syria.

On satellite imagery from Google Maps as well as Bing, the building is recognisable. The first video (yellow) is filmed south of the building (red) looking north, while the second video (blue) is filmed from the west looking east.

There is no known presence of the so-called Islamic State (IS) in the Idlib Governorate, but several opposition groups are active in the region and control most of its territory.

The building

It is not clear how much bread for how many people was produced per day. İHH has said it was ‘providing daily bread for nearly 45 thousand Syrian IDPs‘, but told Turkish state-run Anadolu Agency it served ‘65,000 loafs of bread per day’ for ‘about 40,000’ Syrians. British newspaper The Mirror quotes a number as high as 50,000, while it says the number of loafs per day is only 16,000.

It is also not clear when exactly İHH and Qatar Charity started operating a bakery in the building. İHH told the Anadolu Agency the bakery was established 16 months ago, while the Qatar Charity tweeted it was working for 18 months. What is clear is that the building – whether it was already used as a bakery or not – has been there for at least 11 years. And in those years, not much has changed in the outlook, as Google satellite imagery reveals.

Older satellite imagery from the building from Google show not much has changed on the outside for at least 14 years.

Satellite imagery from the building from Google reveal that not much has changed on the outside of the building for at least 11 years.

That the building had tools and machines to make bread can be established. Metallic stands in the background of two local videos (that will be discussed below) resemble a bread making stand shown in an Al Jazeera reportage on a Turkish bakery, also managed by İHH, in Reyhanlı, Turkey, around 50 kilometres away from al-Duwaīr. It is evident that there were necessary facilities to make bread present at the building.

Comparable stands in al-Duwaīr (left) and Reyhanlı (right). Both are managed by İHH.

But there is something more remarkable in the accompanying text of the Al Jazeera reportage. It reads that a İHH employee says ‘they previously shipped flour directly to bakers in Syria’ but ‘with their bakeries being regularly targeted, two years ago they decided that it would be more effective to produce the bread in Turkey and ship it to the needy.’ Al Jazeera‘s Hassan Ghani writes that the loaves of bread from Reyhanlı are sent to several parts of Syria, including Idlib.

The article was published on May 20, 2015, meaning İHH said it stopped shipping flour to Syria in May 2013. İHH and Qatar Charity claimed the operations near Sarāqib started 16-18 months ago, roughly a year after the flour shipments to Syria stopped. Based on this information, several questions arise: Did flour shipments to Sarāqib start again? Was the alleged bakery in Sarāqib obtaining their flour from somewhere else?

A few have argued hitting a bakery might be a strategy to ‘starve‘ out Syria. Another claim has been made that the bakery was or is a weapons depot in disguise (hinting towards alleged links with al-Qā’idah). An argument put forward to support this is the second explosion in the first video. It is remarkably bigger and more explosive than the first explosion. A crackling noise can be heard, alongside the sound of the jet.

Two still from the video of the Step News Agency, showing the explosion after the second strike.

Two stills from the Step News Agency video show the explosion after the second strike.

Others, including Hassan al-Mukhtar, a local reporter for Eye on Homeland, told Bellingcat that the second strike hit a diesel fuel stockpile, necessary to keep the bakery running in times of power outages. An argument to support this claim can be the following photo, tweeted by İHH, allegedly showing post-strike photos. The photo shows a machine that seems to be a diesel power generator, with (from left to right) a generator, an engine, a muffler, and radiator. This might indicate that the machine could run on (diesel) fuel that might be stored on the compound as well.

muffler

A muffler can be seen on what is allegedly a photo taken on the premises of the building after the Nov. 29 airstrikes.

However, at the moment it is not possible at this time to either verify or reject the claim that arms were stored in the building. Neither it is possible to say that (diesel) fuel was stored on the compound.

Was it the first time the building was hit by airstrikes? No.

Mustafa Özbek, an İHH official, told Al Jazeera that Sunday’s attack “was the first time any of our facilities was targeted”. This claim contradicts earlier reports from local media that suggest the bakery has been hit by airstrikes before. Let’s have a look at those reports.

Firstly, there is a reportage by Orient News, a pro-opposition Syrian media group owned by billionaire Ghassan Aboud, uploaded to YouTube on October 15, 2015. It claims that four Russian airstrikes hit a grain mill (مطحنةَ الحبوب) and the bakery (المخبزَ) on October 14, 2015, which led to the shut down of the facilities.

A comparison of stills of the building from video 3 (left) and video 1 (right) shows it is the same building.

A comparison of stills from the Orient News reportage (Oct. 15, left) and Syrian Yahia’s video (Nov. 29 right). The damage of earlier strikes is clearly visible in the Nov. 29 video.

Secondly, a reportage for Eye on Homeland, published on November 22, 2015, shows the same building again and gives it a name as well: bakery al-Wazīr (مطحنة الوزير). The video starts with a shot of a sign that refers to both İHH and Qatar. The date on which the strikes occurred is not mentioned. The shots at 0:47-0:53 and 0:57-1:19 clearly show that it is the same building as in the previous videos (seven windows horizontally, six windows vertically).

Small change

Open door on Oct. 15 video, barricaded on Nov. 22 video.

Lastly, Eye on Homeland also published several pictures on Facebook on October 20, 2015. They show again the same building and claimed the bakery stopped working after it was hit by Russian planes (الطيران الروسي).

idlib eye on homeland

Screenshot of the accompanying text with 6 photos , claiming the bakery was hit by airstrikes and stopped operating.

A comparison between the footage published on November 22 and the photos published by İHH after the November 29 strikes, shows that the lower building has been damaged severely in the latest strikes.

bakery 2 intact now destroyed

The upper photo shows a still from the Nov. 22 footage, the two lower photos were published on Nov. 30 by İHH.

Using open source information, this is what I have found so far and can contribute to the discussion. Any reader is more than welcome to contribute to this case in the comments.

Updates:

  • Dec. 1: Mustafa Özbek, an İHH official, has told Bellingcat that the building was indeed hit on October 14, 2015. However, he claims the building did ‘not get big damage’ and the ‘attack didnt [sic] stop our work.’ The November 29 attacks did destroy all of the bakery, he said. He says no specific name is used for the bakery, but simply call it Sarāqib bakery.
  • Dec. 1: Following a comment of Sean Lamb, I have added information coming from the Al Jazeera reportage on the Reyhanlı bakery. An İHH official claimed that the NGO stopped shipping flour to Syria in May 2013. İHH and Qatar Charity claimed the operations near Sarāqib started 16-18 months ago, roughly a year after the flour shipments to Syria stopped. Based on this information, several questions arise: Did flour shipments to Sarāqib start again? Was the alleged bakery in Sarāqib obtaining their flour from somewhere else? I have asked İHH for a reaction.
  • Dec. 1: Leif has suggested in the comments that the “so-far unidentified machine which has a muffler” is a diesel power generator. Besides the muffler, a generator, engine, and radiator (from left to right) can be identified, he says. ‘Exhaust duct could have become disconnected from muffler from explosion. Looks to be about 300-350kW output of electricity. Of course no indication of what the power was used for or when it was last functioning.’
  • Dec. 4: The Russian Ministry of Defence has released a video on its YouTube-channel, claiming it is ‘a large ISIS depot”. As written above, there is no known presence of IS in this region.
Christiaan Triebert

Christiaan Triebert has investigated for Bellingcat since 2015 and runs several of Bellingcat's workshops for journalists and researchers across the world. Contact via email (christiaantriebert@bellingcat.com) or Twitter (@trbrtc).

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73 Comments

  1. Jim Dobbin

    This is a refreshing “investigation” from BCat in that it’s the first I’ve ever read wherein someone actually starts from a position of “Let’s work towards a conclusion” rather than “Here’s my conclusion now I just need to make the facts fit it.”

    This guy actually questions the opposition claims rather than taking the position they are right until proven wrong. Given how anti-Russian the BCat team openly are and how pro-opposition (in Syria) they are, it’ll be interesting to see how long it takes for Higgins to clip Christiaan’s wings or for Christiaan himself to become victim of the “groupthink”.

    Reply
  2. Darrin

    Well ,well more propaganda bullshit this wasn’t being used as bakery it was used for storage of rebel hence why it was.hit..

    Reply
    • Jim Dobbin

      I’m inclined to agree with you Darrin. Though the author was professional enough to actually try mount some sort of fair investigation as opposed to Bellingcat’s usual mantra of – Here’s our conclusion now we’ll try and get the facts to support it. So credit for that.

      But even if the building was a working bakery it is still highly probable it was used for dual-purpose as has been done in the passed by rebels. That is to say, one half of the building makes bread and the other half stores weapons. They did that in Aleppo in 13/14 & Ghouta if I’m not mistaken.

      My guess, and it’s only a guess, is that if it was a dual purpose building this is why the Russians hit it. I doubt they decided to waste tens of thousands of $ on munitions to stop people making bread.

      Reply
      • Edoardo

        Russians? You mean the Kremlin? They assassinated millions along the XX century. One million in Afghanistan, then ten of thousands in Chechnya, then in East Europe after WWII, just only think to Eastern Prussia, assassinated by Fr. Stalin SJ. They must destroy the Sunni Islam, in order to push Sunni in Europe, where they parties like Lega Nord in Italy and Front National of Marine Le Pen in France (financed by Kremlin’s bank for 9 millions) are waiting the Russians as “liberators”. The goal? Destroy Turkey and to re-build Orthodox Costantinople, to put back the lancet of history at 313 a.C…..

        Reply
        • stranger

          The views on the history are becoming interestinger and interestinger. Russia is trying to destroy Turkey to pay back for Byzantine Empire, where Russian orthodox Christianity originated from, to liberate Constantinople from Sunni Muslims and expel them to Europe. That’s why they played Turkish Gambit and allowed to shot down the plane. How smart… what would be next?

          Reply
  3. boggled

    The third video from October 2015 is interesting in that near the end of it it shows dough in the machine unless it is cloth of some sort, a lot of wheat being turned into flour, as well as flour spread around.
    The sand (flour or wheat?) bags are interesting in that they do not look like enough to prevent looters or as any other purpose then a shooting position.

    The grounds look almost spotlessly cleaned up in some of the images, yet some of the videos show the devastation of various air attacks on the building with debris.

    The compound looks big enough to house a few tanks or trucks with various guns mounted on them or to be a military post with its high and location near a roadway.
    Yet, no destroyed vehicles are seen in the aftermath of the airstrikes.

    A potential sniper post I guess, but little to prove that, and little from the aftermath videos to prove the airstrikes prevents it.
    It is obvious it is not a weapons manufacturing post (from what we see)
    It could be temporary weapons storage, I guess, or barracks, yet little evidence of either in the videos..
    Like Chechnya in the first war, there is little rhyme or reason to RF airstrikes.
    And no seeking to make sure it is a valid target.
    Their method of airstrikes is complete devastation.
    These are note from Berlin 1944, not Sarajevo, these are from 1995 Chechnya.

    http://jeremynicholl.photoshelter.com/gallery/The-Chechen-Tomb/G0000G_h3L8w1Jiw/

    This site compares Grozny bombing by RF to the Sarajevo bombing and states – ‘At the height of the siege of Sarajevo, the Bosnian capital was being hit by 1,000 shells a day. In mid-January explosions rocked the centre of Grozny at a rate of 900 an hour – one every four seconds.’

    Could RF have actually determined 900 high military value targets inside a city of civilians for every hour it bombed the city?

    Or was it just their standard scenario of carpet bombing.
    Do they do their due diligence in determining a military target?
    From looking at these images I would say doubtful.
    Maybe the RF has something they consider evidence that makes the bakery a valid target?

    Considering this image, I am sure they can manufacture something to the brainwashed Kremlin defenders.

    https://berealtruth.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/rus-chnl1-sat_image-mh17-e.jpg?w=634&h=424

    Nah, I think this was a bakery recently used.
    Someone was worried about an theft or a Daesh attack and setup the sandbag defensive position, but it appears to me not to be a military target.

    And it is DEFINITELY not a Daesh target, there is no Daesh graffiti all over it.

    Just another campaign by an outside government to eliminate Assad’s opposition source of food or potential source of food.
    I see a valid target to Butcher of Damascus or Don vova, but to anyone else a waste of ammo and destruction of infrastructure that will be needed when the conflict ends.

    Fare thee well

    Reply
    • Sean Lamb

      Thank god boggled is back. I was beginning to worry if Uncle Vova had finally got him.

      Or has he just taken off his fez?

      Reply
      • boggled

        Glad to see you also Sean, Fez’s are not my thing, Fedoras from time to time, but Fez I will leave to those that can carry it off, and those that have the organ grinders.

        Sometimes life means putting away your various communication devices.
        The Native Americans did okay without them for many years.
        Although they did have their smoke signals and powwows in the tents.
        Sometimes the meetings of minds in life is more fun then throwing bombs at each other through the net.
        Don’t worry about me as of yet, tea is not my drink of choice.
        Although until Savchenko is released, I have something special for vova to let him know I am thinking of him.
        I hope he will like his gift from Saint Nikolas this year.

        Fare thee well

        Reply
  4. Sean Lamb

    BTW it turns out that the US had just bombed a water treatment plant in Aleppo the day before (obviously of no interest to Bellingcat as it was done by the Americans…)

    That probably explains why IHH suddenly discovered the Russians had bombed a “bakery”

    Reply
      • Sean Lamb

        Not the first time the Americans targeted Aleppo’s civilian infrastructure nor it being totally ignored by the Western news wires. From October:
        ““[Western countries] say we are bombing false targets. On Sunday US air forces targeted a power station and a transformer in Aleppo. Why did they do it? Whom did they punish? What was the sense? That is unclear,” Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday.”

        Meanwhile ISIS’s control of Mosul, Tikrit and Ramadi continues undisturbed despite a 13 month long cosmetic bombing campaign and a large well equipped Iraqi army standing idle

        Reply
        • Rob

          Sean said “From October:
          ““[Western countries] say we are bombing false targets. On Sunday US air forces targeted a power station and a transformer in Aleppo. Why did they do it? Whom did they punish? What was the sense? That is unclear,” Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday.””

          Let me get this straight.
          Putin said on Tuesday that the US targeted a power station and transformer in Aleppo.

          And you take that as a fact ?

          Reply
          • Sean Lamb

            No – he said it sometime back in October.
            http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/611846/Islamic-State-ISIS-airstrikes-Syria-arms-vehicles-Putin

            Given that no one on the US side issued a denial then it is more likely to be a fact than many of the news reports that you accept without question.

            When a high profile world leader makes such a specific claim then there is an obligation for some level of the US bureaucracy to either issue a denial or a clarification.. If they do not, then it is reasonable to assume guilty as charged.

          • boggled

            Well Sean, there are logical reasons for eliminating a power station, the judgment has to be is it worth the short term shortage of electricity of civilians versus the protection of a specific military campaign.

            A transformer and power station can be quickly rebuilt, but if it prevented a communication between Daesh headquarters and a target they were making by preventing a certain radar contact, airplane like the one in Kunduz, from being seen and countered it may be worth damaging that infrastructure, then leaving it alone to be rebuilt and repaired.

            So cutting off electricity in a VERY TARGETED, not like Russia’s vova vova bombs, airstrike for the rest of a night’s bombing might just be worth damaging that power station for a short time.

            Just one example, another might be a temporary interruption of power and delay of response time for a Syrian military base’s radar – with a lot of AA capabilities, for a quick in and out destruction of Daesh targets.

            vova knows this, he is just playing vova.
            I really am surprised you do not recognize the value of a power station as a military target and play as vova as vova.

            Fare thee well

          • Sean Lamb

            Possibly, just possibly any radar facilities have its own power supply.

            Still I take your point, boggled, we can’t possibly compare America’s strategically brilliant targeting of electricity and water treatment infrastructure around Aleppo with Russia’s horrifying destruction of an imaginary bakery.

            I wonder if Mosul’s electricity and water treatment facilities are being similarly treated by the Americans? I suspect not. I remember reading the reason that American waited over a year before targeting ISIS’s oil smuggling operations (ie until the Russians started doing it also) is they didn’t want to upset people dependent on it.

          • Rob

            Sean Lamb said “When a high profile world leader makes such a specific claim then there is an obligation for some level of the US bureaucracy to either issue a denial or a clarification..”

            No, Sean, there is no such “obligation”.
            But a picture or a video would help.
            After all, it would not be the first time that Russia has “Aleppo” and “Raqqa” mixed up
            https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2015/11/11/geolocation-once-again-disproves-russias-targeting-claims-in-syria/
            and that was even about their OWN strikes.

  5. John Zenwirt

    boggled: “These are note from Berlin 1944…”

    Yes, no doubt the USSR is scattering bombs a la the Allied Air Forces against the Germans, where we managed to kill about 600,000 civilians, which is typical for dumb bombs…

    Reply
    • Mad Dog

      Uh, where do you get 600,000 civilians killed. Never ever seen that number. No problem though, since the Germans, Italians and Japanese had no qualms whatsoever in bombing civilians from the mid-30’s on. Accordingly, these powers had the foresight to see what was coming their way and did little (especially the Japanese) to effectively get their civilians out of harms way. Still, 600,000 Germans sounds a lot like the 1 million Iraqis killed…..a bit far fetched.

      Reply
      • Sean Lamb

        “Uh, where do you get 600,000 civilians killed. Never ever seen that number. ”

        600000 or to be precise 635000 is the figure published by the Statistisches Bundesamt Deutschland back in 1957. It is the standard figure any credible history uses, to have never seen that number merely indicates a complete ignorance of WW2 history.

        Recently some historians have suggested the figure should be revised down, possibly with some justification. But these revisions have yet to become orthodoxy.

        Incidentally, if you are so rigorous regarding the Allied civilian bombing toll. What is your opinion of the 250 000 civilian deaths in the Syrian Civil War. Reliable? I seem to recall it leaped up to 100 000 very quickly.

        Reply
        • Mad Dog

          Uh, the figures in 1957 are no longer credible. The numbers used today are much lower and of course include civilian deaths caused by Russian bombing as well. These range from about 410,000 to around 350,000. Not 600,000, so perhaps I am not as ignorant as you suggest, thank you very much. Anyway, as the Germans were very intent on bombing civilians from the very start, I am not sure this means very much, since they had plenty of time to protect their citizens from what they surely knew was coming. Remember, they were still hitting the UK with V1 and V2 rockets, very inaccurate weapons used to instill terror in the civilian populace by bombing the shit out of them!

          Reply
    • boggled

      About 375k in the battle for Berlin, 175k are claimed to be civilian, but not all through the bombing campaign there John.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_in_Berlin

      Yeah, Western forces softened them up some, but hardly by the numbers of Soviet forces.
      Near the end of the article an interesting note-
      ‘However, in many areas, vengeful Soviet troops (usually rear echelon units) looted, raped (an estimated 100,000) and murdered civilians for several weeks’

      Fare thee well

      Reply
  6. tourist

    Hello Bellingcat, Russia has released some photos of convoys and parking places of oiltank trucks going from Syria to Turkey. I think it’s a good idea to geolocate them. Here is an article about this topic which has some of these photos. http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/46/46743/1.html The graphics there is interesting, the western of the oil tank truck pathes would pass several frontiers between IS and other rebels and assad troups, so this only could be wrong. Compare that graphics also with one froma just a few hours older article http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/46/46736/1.html Also the last aerial photo is interesting in the 1st link, it claims to be large IS controlled oil tanks which have been destroyed by russian airforce. But to me these are not looking like oil tanks (like besides a raffinery or in a oil harbour) but it looks more like grain silo or something like that. Maybe you are able to also geolocate and try to get confirmation? Additionally I found these in the TP forum to that article:
    > https://www.google.de/maps/@37.104963,42.4518616,1928m/data=!3m1!1e3
    > https://www.google.de/maps/@37.1127644,42.4696859,1953m/data=!3m1!1e3
    > https://www.google.de/maps/@37.1766854,42.5512085,1965m/data=!3m1!1e3
    > http://her.is/1OGJ0Yg

    Reply
  7. Hashem

    That was good work from you my friend, as i am a syrian and living in turkey I can say that we can not say IHH is a terrorist organization becouse ithas fund from EU and UN and it is the largest provider of aid to syrin people

    Reply
  8. Hashem

    And about the bombing, we use a headphone we can hear one of the people saying “!!! الصاروخ بالجو الصاروخ بالجو” which means “the missile in the air”
    And thats is a usual thing is Syria after beginning the Russian attack
    Here is some links for example: http://youtu.be/uSaP2Oiz_PM
    2- http://youtu.be/ovNSUG94r5g
    So we can not know if that was by jet or missile from the se
    But in blth way no body in syria has that except rejem forces an Russia

    Reply
    • Sean Lamb

      “!!! الصاروخ بالجو الصاروخ بالجو”

      My Arabic isn’t perfect, but wasn’t it “the missile in the air….damn, there go all the croissants” that was said?

      Reply
  9. Hashem

    And about the bombing, if we use a headphone we can hear one of the people saying “!!! الصاروخ بالجو الصاروخ بالجو” which means “the missile in the air”
    And thats is a usual thing in Syria after beginning the Russian attack
    Here is some links for example: http://youtu.be/uSaP2Oiz_PM
    2- http://youtu.be/ovNSUG94r5g
    And it has the same vice as plane
    So we can not know if that was by jet or missile from the sea
    But in both way no body in syria has that except rejem forces an Russia

    Reply
    • Randy Dread

      and just because some terrorist says something we should believe that’s what happened?

      Reply
      • boggled

        Randy, just because RT said the little green men were not Russian soldiers, should we believe it?
        NO, we cannot take any accounts at face value, but when they are supported by a LOT of evidence from other sources that are trustworthy, then it paints a pretty complete picture.

        Some idiots still watch and believe RT even though they have been exposed repeatedly of flat out LYING.
        Are you one?

        Fare thee well

        Reply
          • boggled

            Multiple people on the ground, multiple journalists, multiple international aid groups, multiple satellite images, multiple analysts coming up with the same conclusion tend to paint a pretty conclusive image.
            And yes, even those ‘arm chair quarterbacks’, or forwards if your sport is soccer, that have been correct in their early analysis over and over again.
            If NATO, PACE, OSCE, IRC, UN, AlJazerra, Rueters, AP, AFP, BBC are all reporting the same thing, don’t you think there just might be some truth to it?
            Or since Kremlin defenders say are they all the same source therefore not to be trusted because according to Kremlin defenders they are all subservient to USA Government, or Illuminati, or some secret global government.

            Kremlin sponsored media ‘experts’ have all been proven to not be experts or have been censored with what they are allowed to say on Russian TV, yet the defenders still pump out more BS and the brainwashed cult still quote it as gospel.
            you and your false idol vova.

            Anyways, still researching Hashem’s claims, but he brings some interesting evidence to the table.
            You are right, if some guy post a video on YouTube, it should not be taken at face value, it could be similar to a Hollywood script.

            There are bad apples in every crowd.
            Do I think members of ALQ or other violent extremists have infiltrated IHH?
            Yep, even the Turkish government has chased after them in an attempt to clean it up, but over all it does some honorable items.
            The reason for the Senators sent a petition to the POTUS was to establish IF it was a foreign terrorists org and should have its funding curtailed by the USA government, as well as to begin blocking the financing or donations that go to it from the USA.
            Trying to enter a blockade illegally and then attacking IDF forces, who controlled the blockade and are the representative government, as they stopped them seems justified to ask for an investigation to me.
            If anything just to determine how deeply their group is infiltrated by violent jihadis as well as others.
            There was some substantial evidence presented for the group to be investigated.

            As I am sure with you searching for you 87, you came across https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IHH_(Turkish_NGO)

            And read it fully as I did.

            74 sources listed there that come from multiple sources themselves.

            I do not take all said in Wiki as gospel, but it does paint the overall picture quite well.

            Your comment evolved from 87 USA Senators think it is (really they just thought the BHO Admin should begin an investigation) to stating flat out they are terrorists?

            Or are you saying the guy who took and posted the video is?
            Which one is it?
            Or are you being typical Randy Dandy and saying because Hashem has a Islamic name he is automatically a terrorist?
            hmm?

            From your vague insinuating comments it is difficult to tell.
            You throw the name terrorist out there, what do you mean?

            Fare thee well

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