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The Weird World of MH17 Conspiracy Theories

August 7, 2015

By Aric Toler

Just over a year after the anniversary of the tragic downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17, a new trickle of conspiracy theories have emerged, including the use of an Israeli rocket launched from a Georgian aircraft downing MH17 and an undercover CIA agent working for the BBC plotting the plane’s downing. These new narratives are yet more entries in an ever-expanding corpus of outlandish theories to explain the tragedy, which have received varying levels of support from the Kremlin and its media outlets.

This is the first half of a two-part series that will attempt to catalogue all of these theories, from completely outlandish ideas that receive virtually no attention to elaborate theories touted by Russian state media. This half will document the more outlandish theories that have not received Russian support, though the second half will also have a few oddball ideas.


THEORY:

Israel assisted the Ukrainian shoot down of MH17 by using an F-15E plane out of Azerbaijan as an airborne radar system, allowing a Ukrainian SU-22 to target the passenger plane. Poroshenko was acting under the orders of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

MOTIVE:

In order to distract the world from its ongoing offensive against Gaza, Israel framed Russia for the downing of a civilian airliner.

IN THEIR WORDS…

“I’ll put my hand on my heart & say Putin had nothing to do with this. He had nothing to gain, everything to lose & there is NO evidence to even suggest he did such a thing! (…) Here’s what’s in my tank – there is zero question in my mind as to who was responsible for the downing of flight MH17 – BENJAMIN NETANYAHU!”

RATING:

2 out of 5

Sources:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/11/15/israel-and-mh17/

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/20/372121/israel-benefits-from-downed-malaysia-jet/

http://falastinews.com/2014/11/23/israel-behind-downing-mh17/ 

 


THEORY:

The Illuminati/New World Order/Satan downed MH17 in a false flag attempt, with Russia, Ukraine, and all other major countries in the world complicit in the disaster.

MOTIVE:

In order to usher in World War III, the rise of the Antichrist, and the end of the world, Satan used his Illuminati reptilian puppets of Putin and Ukrainian PM Yatsenyuk to commit a horrible tragedy.

IN THEIR WORDS…

“The MH17 false flag attack has been orchestrated by the illuminatis as a trigger for 2014 WW3 in order to open the reign of their master Satan: The New World Order.”

RATING:

6 out of 66

Sources:

http://truthfromgod.canalblog.com/archives/2014/07/24/30304398.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ7F3Ag5EsE 

 


THEORY:

MH17 never existed. No plane ever crashed. The West transported debris into a poultry farm in the village of Grabovo, spread it out, and said that a plane was shot down. There are no victims, and all of the relatives are lying crisis actors. Russia always knew that there was never an actual plane crash, but could not say this without coming across as heartless, so they put together a series of ineffective retorts to the West regarding SU-25 planes, a Ukrainian Buk, and so on. However, none of these worked, and Russia has been outmaneuvered in a grand conspiracy.

MOTIVE:

To humiliate Russia and isolate it from the West.

IN THEIR WORDS…

“They just trivially planted a stale corpse at the door of Russia and forced it to make roundabout excuses about how it didn’t kill anyone. And then they invited Russia to court. And now just try to prove that you didn’t kill anyone, when you have already acknowledged a corpse that doesn’t even exist!”

RATING:

There is no rating low enough for the breathtaking amounts of insensitivity in this theory

Sources:

http://amfora.livejournal.com/268917.html

 


THEORY:

Occult forces guided by the IMF and its head, Christine Lagarde, orchestrated the downing of MH17, as proven by the event’s connections to numerology. This allegation is irrefutable due to the repetition of the number 7 (MH-17, 7/17/2014, Boeing 777), an occult number that was discussed by Lagarde in a 2014 speech.

MOTIVE:

To gain a casus belli against Russia, the lone country that stands in the way of the New World Order and its economic hegemony over the world.

IN THEIR WORDS…

“It is my thesis that Lagarde is referring possibly to the “magic 7” event of the Malaysian Plane false flag, and that this may be a signifier of the coming international economic order and reorganized monetary reset, as well as war with Eurasia or Russia, primarily signified and fulfilled in the MH17 false flag fiasco.”

RATING:

7 out of 7

Sources:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYmViPTndxw

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/21/mh17-malaysian-airlines-false-flag-scripting-straight-out-of-bbcs-sherlock/ 

 


THEORY:

The West framed Russia and its separatists for MH17 by repainting and planting the debris of a previously crashed plane in the fields of eastern Ukraine. This flight was likely British Airways Flight 38, which crashed outside of London Heathrow airport during a botched landing. MH17 disappeared (along with its 298 souls) and no one knows where it is now, if it ever even existed.

MOTIVE:

The United Kingdom (and only them) wanted to frame the pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine of shooting down a civilian airliner.

IN THEIR WORDS…

“The MI-6 and British government are preparing a justification for a situation in which parts of other aircrafts are found in the remains of MH17, and accordingly, it turns out that no one ever shot down MH17 and to this day its location is unknown.”

RATING:

0 planes out of 5

Sources:

http://ymuhin.ru/node/1106

 


THEORY:

Ukraine and its Western, Modi-hating backers shot down MH17, thinking down the flight was actually the plane carrying Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi from Frankfurt.

MOTIVE:

In order to prevent the rise of India and its independence from Western institutions, Ukraine and its western allies shoot down Modi’s plane in order to further entrench themselves into the Indian economy. Unfortunately for them, Modi’s plane narrowly missed the time frame in which MH17 was targeted and shot down.

IN THEIR WORDS…

“If it was mistakenly brought down, it is important for those who are interested in the truth to investigate those who have opposed Modi for more than 12 years. Since late 2001, many international forces have carried out a sustained campaign against Modi and have used their favorite method of using human rights organizations to fling mud at him and have even accused him of human rights violations.”

RATING:

I out of BRICS

Sources:

http://indiafacts.co.in/narendra-modi-real-target-mh-17-shooters/  

 


THEORY:

The Illuminati shot down MH17 in order to kill AIDS researchers

MOTIVE:

The global elite, who have a vested interest in the continued growth of the pharmaceutical industries and the depopulation of the planet, shot down MH17 in order to prevent a cure for AIDS to surface. The conspiracy theorist is “just asking” the question if the actual cure for AIDS was on board MH17, giving a motive to the shadowy global conspirators to shoot down the plane.

IN THEIR WORDS…

“If we take all of these ‘clues’ into consideration would it be safe to assume that the scientist on board MH17 were about to present breakthrough research which could have resulted in the AIDS cure? Could these men have been ‘taken out’ by the global elitists in order to protect their highly-profitable AIDS industry, which generates billions of dollars for government run pharmaceutical companies?”

RATING:

3 Rothschilds out of 5

Sources:

http://indiafacts.co.in/narendra-modi-real-tahttp://beforeitsnews.com/power-elite/2014/07/illuminati-takes-down-malaysian-airline-mh17-to-hide-the-cure-for-aids-getting-rid-of-the-cure-to-keep-money-in-their-pockets-and-continue-their-depopulation-agenda-2446354.htmlrget-mh-17-shooters/

 


THEORY:

A Chinese crew shot down MH17 with an anti-air missile, and Putin knows about it, thus causing a supposed cool down in Sino-Russian relationship building. A Chinese crew used an HQ-16, a Chinese mid-range surface-to-air missile system. Oh, and China also shot down MH370 too, probably with an HQ-16 as well.

MOTIVE:

Unknown.

IN THEIR WORDS…

“This raises the intriguing possibility that MH-17 was actually shot down by the Chinese, as the Ukrainians would not have any crews trained on the HQ-16, whose instrumentation would probably be marked in Mandarin or Cantonese. There are not a lot of Chinese-speaking Ukrainians, in fact there are not a lot of Chinese restaurants in Kiev.”

RATING:

HQ-16 out of SA-11

Sources:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/31/mh17-shootdown-continues/

 

Aric Toler

Aric Toler started volunteering for Bellingcat in 2014 and has been on staff since 2015. He currently heads up Bellingcat's training efforts and its Eastern Europe/Eurasia research.

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57 Comments

  1. GuileSF

    If you ask me, I dont even care if the Russians did it. I still support them.
    Would this one tragic event make them the worse option as the world superpower then say USA?

    What do we know today about the numerous false flags events USA staged? All the medling in other countries internal affairs, assasinations, coups, staged elections and “democratic” revolutions, infrastructure takeovers etc, not to mention bombings and ongoing wars all over the world.

    Why is Russia the more evil one here? It’s time for a new order of things and for people to come to sensible conclusions.

    Reply
    • boggled

      Someone has to be the cop and someone is the criminal.
      To the criminal who makes the laws, Russia is right in what they do.
      To believers in democracy and against dictatorships and fascism, the USA is right in what they do.
      Of course criminals are going to say we should be allowed to peddle drugs around your schools so we can make money.
      The people that fight that stupoid shit are going to be supported by a majority of the world.
      If you want to support your criminals, fine.
      I will support mine because they are in the light side of that grey line.
      Guile you argument is just for a MadMax kind of world, I would prefer a StarTrekGenerations type of future. Sorry you like barbarism and cavemen type living, I do not.
      Bugger off.

      Fare thee well

      Reply
    • Hektr

      You ask: Why is Russia the more evil one here?
      Simple: Because murder is bad. Killing innocent people is a crime, and the criminal responsible for that must be judged according to the International Law, in this case Putin, who up until now cowardly denies everything and shows no repent for his actions.

      Reply
    • Translator

      What a sad sad case of projection… Every sin you accuse the USA of, your masters in the Kremlin are guilty of hundredfold, so I’d really shut up if I were you.
      Russia has very little to be proud of… very little indeed.
      The USA is no saint, but it’s as close to one as any global power has ever come. Russia, on the other hand, has one of the worst records of any global power – both towards outsiders and its own people.

      BTW, could you please hop by that restaurant across the street, and fetch me some of those nice meat pirozhki? I’d really appreciate it! The address?… Oh… I think you know which restaurant I’m talking about…

      Reply
    • Mushroom

      If only most Russian apologists could own up to the truth as well as you just did. The issue here isn’t who the “evil” country is such terms are useless in geopolitical discussions, it is a term designed to refer to human morality it makes no sense when applied to nations. The issue here is that those the vast majority of those who support Russia’s actions in Ukraine obscure the truth in favor of the narrative the Russian government wishes to create. Very few Russian supporters, whether they believe Russia or the separatists it backs to be responsible for the downing of MH17 will publicly admit it. You yourself even stopped short of acknowledging Russian complicity advertently. You will see much less of this kind of behaviour from those who support Ukraine and/or NATO.

      Reply
  2. beeco

    “To believers in democracy and against dictatorships and fascism, the USA is right in what they do.”…indeed you have to be a believer, to cope with this bullshit, they are dishing out as “democracy”! Meddling in other countries affairs, plotting color coups, killing people with drones on no legal grounds whatsoever, waging wars (America Has Been At War 93% of the Time – 222 Out of 239 Years – Since 1776) and leaving behind millions of fugitives and crippled and devastated lands… democracy indeed…lol… and of course same goes for shooting down passenger planes. US have a tradition of shoot downs, like Iran Air 655 in 1988 and the Ukraine has too -2001 Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 – and besides that, if they “knew” two hours after the crash that the independence fighters did it, than why is one year after the crash nothing official with proofs published? – Ah forgot…what they really found did not fit their false story they blasted out so early…lol

    Reply
    • boggled

      One thing I would point out interesting, if your years of US wars was to be factual, was the fact USA was not part of Europe and German Wars or the Japan wages war prior to 1940, for five years, the USA stayed out of International conflicts and was peaceful.
      And look what almost happened…

      Many were conflicts of aggression against the Federal Government of the USA and started by outside forces.
      Others were demanded by coalitions of other nations, or requests of nations the USA was allied with.
      There are a few where the USA jumped in and helped rebellions get rid of Dictators and corruption.

      How many Communist, Totalitarian, and Dictatorship governments help the losing party of the conflict to rebuild?
      They just come and take over the country they beat and then deport the population of ‘losers’ to Gulag’s, import the dictaorship nation’s citizens, and then bleed the country dry.

      Know what democracies do to the losers? They rebuild it then once they are self sufficient enough, they allow the new government to set a path with future financial and leadership guidance if they ask for it.

      AS to your plane incidents, One plane for each country?
      Ukraine agreed to pay a fine, a low one, and the RF dropped the case.
      It is still unsolved, many think it was a terrorist or non Ukrainian military that took over control of the missile radar guidance and directed it at 1812.
      Another is that someone launched and intercept missile from a sub and it missed the original missile (or was intentionally targeted) and hit 1812 while the original missile fell into the sea.
      It is also alleged that it may have been RF troops that were following the exercise with their radars jammed the missile in training exercise and that prevented the Ukrainian ‘self destruct’ code from working.
      There are a lot of questions and it has not been solved.

      As far as 655, it was flying to Dubia at about 5k feet over a zone of conflict.
      Attempts were made to contact both the Iranian ATC and the plane.
      No response.
      The commander assumed with that and other evidence he had that he was getting attacked.
      So, he made the decision to shoot down the plane.
      It is unfortunate, but not all the guilt there lies on the USA or the Navy captain.
      The USA paid compensation to settle it, but did not admit guilt.

      Did you know the CCCP, RF, and its various renditions have over 10 civilians planes they have destroyed over the years with their military or their ‘little green men’?
      And guess what, most all of them are proven facts and Moscow has claimed responsibility and guilt over them.
      So really, who has a tradition?

      As far as no reports yet? Maybe you do not know how International Investigations of Airplanes disasters work and how long it takes for those reports to come out?
      Maybe you should research a little before you type again and make a bigger fool of yourself.

      *pats beeco on the head* – ‘It is okay little baby beeco, go to your room and cry and your not a big boy yet, you should not use word like bullshit, and let the big people discuss facts without your propaganda.’

      Ignorance or is it just paid trolling by a Kremlin stooge?
      Amazing the lies that people repeat.

      Fare thee well

      Reply
    • boggled

      No it was CIA, No it was Mossad, No it was Mi-6, not it was the Bandera ghost, no it was a cabbage patch doll, not it was the Wizard from Oz, no it was the chicken after it crossed the road.
      It was a flying pink elephant I swear, or was it a dodo bird?
      I am leaning toward Mr. Plum, in the library, with a candlestick.
      Maybe your right it was Elvis, let’s check with the Russian MoD.

      Honestly though, I hope they did not JUST find them.
      It was hard to tell from the article if it was that, a ‘just leaked’ part of the report, or something some witness just found and turned in or if it was something sifting threw the wreckage they found, or what.
      It could have been GRAD parts.
      Where were they found would have been nice to know.

      The only thing I get from the article is they found some rather significant pieces that are not part of the plane.

      The crash site is some 20km in diameter, if I remember right.
      Which could be bigger if you consider the flight of the missile after it exploded and where those pieces landed.

      Thanks Steve, but to me it is surprising they are making news and releasing this small tidbit.
      It is kind of like GWP finding an alternator of a Lada near Torez in a junkyard and saying – this is not part of the plane I am sure of that, but it might be part of a BUK missile.

      Just strange to see BBC putting it out like that.

      Fare thee well

      Reply
  3. beeco

    Oh my, yes I see, boggled one, you are indoctrinated in a way, a discussion is futile ( like with the borg…lol) so you stay as you are worshiping the golden US, who in your eyes cannot do wrong and damning the Russians who in your eyes are the devil… there is no use in discussion with someone who only can see black and white and has a cemented view of the world and looks down on every one who thinks different.
    As to the facts, yes facts is, 222 of 239 years the US was at war.
    And not because they were attacked or there was aggression against US but because they themselves felt inclined to meddle in foreign affairs for personal gain, economic gain or just power gain. And of course in your view the US are just a charitable institution, a benign world policeman, and of course they act without any interest of their own…
    yeah well, and the earth is a disk…lol ..
    And rebuild, what rebuild??? There would have been nothing to rebuild if they did not destroy it in the first place…and you cannot bring back the dead civilians and make undone those atrocities they did in for instance in Vietnam against the
    civilians? And what you describe of the totalitarian regimes, you dispise so much, is exactly what the US did in many of the cases.
    Did they rebuild Irak, no they did not, they did of course destroy and plunder it, that they did – very democratic indeed…lol.

    “…allow the new government to set a path with future financial and leadership guidance”
    Oh my god! Do you even realize what you write? Allow the government…ALLOW a government…An independent state does not need any allowance from some misguided big brother, who beat them in submission in the first place!
    And “future financial and leadership guidance” …yeah well, how arrogant they are, because the people of a country do not have their own leaders and ideas of how their country should be governed and lead. But even more again, financial guidance…lol…as happens in Ukraine as last example..where their “guidance” lead the prospering state from + 4.3 % in 2012 domestic product to -4.7% in mid 2014…financial guidance, of course..lol, and we do not talk of the depts amassed
    since Poroshenko took over.

    As to the planes, they were examples and well known ones. Ukraine at least had the decency to pay a small sum for the 66 people they killed and apologize.
    The US shot down 290 people and did not only not have the decency to apologize much less pay some compensation – you got your facts wrong there.
    No they even went lower with the arrogant statement of their President shortly after the incident:
    “I will never apologize for the United States — I don’t care what the facts are… I’m
    not an apologize-for-America kind of guy.” – George Bush, Aug 2 1988″

    And where and when those 10 planes were shot down by the evil CCCP, RF or renditions? Any source to that or just making it up?

    “As far as no reports yet? Maybe you do not know how International Investigations of Airplanes disasters work and how long it takes for those reports to come out?”

    Exactely, but they knew 2 hours after the crash that the independence fighters or more so Russia was behind it…lol… so much about independent investigations and their results…lol

    “Maybe you should research a little before you type again and make a bigger fool of yourself.
    *pats beeco on the head* – ‘It is okay little baby beeco, go to your room and cry and your not a big boy yet, you should not use word like bullshit, and let the big people discuss facts without your propaganda.’
    Ignorance or is it just paid trolling by a Kremlin stooge?
    Amazing the lies that people repeat.”

    And there goes my hope for you being capable of an honest discussion…when you cannot disprove my arguments, you go to personal insults…bad, bad, bad habit I tell you… but well, having read your comments before, I sort of expected this to come, it is always last resort of those who lack arguments and are not straight enough to admit it.

    So as you said:
    Fare thee well, and may your little world in the clouds not be disturbed by the truth too soon and if so, I wish for you to be able to cope with it.

    Reply
    • peter

      Well beeco we could start with the Marshall Plan for Germany post ww2. Flight 007. The list is endless. Yeah the USA lacks sensitivity in its forgien policy and has had a host of idiots in their white house (Clinton, Chaney et al and just look at the current contenders- nutters like trump Palin and Hillary) but it has done more good than bad by far.

      Maybe you would prefer mass murderers like Stalin or Mao or medieval religions calling the shots? And Vietnam was brutal on the locals who suffered massively by the French the Japanese and the USA , but the free world won that war as it was the last country to ever fall to communism. For thst we must all he grateful.

      Reply
    • boggled

      oh beeco, your jive does not mesh with facts at all,
      Where you brought up watching Palestinian cartoons? Or little Cheburuska making your childhood so happy while getting fed subliminal messages?

      I do not look down on people that think different, but I do look down on corrupt, or organized criminal, or totalitarian regimes, or dictatorships and yes, communism.
      Not the people themselves that live with that BS.
      You may be happy with your muscovite leadership, but you know 50 km North of Moscow there are villages with no running water, a fireplace to heat water and the home with, and if they are rich a few electric lights for the house?
      How many years of war were there in your favorite Moscow dictatorships?
      Let’s see, it was around 1100 years or so, and of that, just about 50 was war free.

      Getting rid of dictatorships is what we do and the people there, except the ones who made money off the corrupt leaders, were very happy for the USA stepping in.
      Sorry you support criminals and mass murderers.

      As far as Ukraine’s economy, much of it was tied to the RF, so when the RF gets sanctioned, UA’s economy goes in the pits.
      They are breaking away from those ties, while your buddies in the Kremlin destroy food and half the nation goes starving.
      They also have to recover from the 100 billion USD yanukothief and his masters in Moscow embezzled from Ukraine before they ran away.
      NO wonder the effects of that are just showing up now.
      You do know how economies work don’t you? A ripple from 2 years ago usually shows up today.

      Facts about Iran Air 655 – USA paid $61.8 million USD, go do some research.

      You can look up civilian planes disasters and get a gist of civilian planes destroyed.
      I don’t think the Wiki page includes Georgia planes destroyed on the tarmac, Chechen’s, or KGB sanctioned bombings.’
      You have Finland in ww2, two South Korean, and the rest you can look up yourself.
      And then you could include the unsolved or soon to be solved cases and you can include 1812 and MH17 to that list.

      The investigators cannot completely control the media and what they say.
      Evidence in open sources and the Kremlin’s own lies are what damn them.
      I have stated it many times, as others can attest, I do not count Russia as guilty and I do not count Ukraine out as a suspect.
      But I think you can understand why I do believe right now with what I know, the Kremlin is most likely guilty.
      I think that veto at the UNSC is what cinched most peoples minds against Russia.

      Those in the Kremlin are EVIL – Большой секрет — знает весь свет.

      Oh yeah, almost missed, did you know that your good buddy Stalin, the murderer of close to 60 million people refused aid from the USA when they offered it to help rebuild the CCCP way back when under the Marshall Plan?

      Don’t worry, I can be critical of the USA and give BHO a good spanking when he needs it.
      But your boy there in the Kremlin is a criminal and will die as one, the same as Stalin, along with the rest of vova’s familia such as Peskov, Shoigu, Guberev, Strelkov, Pushlin, etc.
      So waste more time reading actual facts and maybe take some night school classes because you really need to learn A LOT.
      Болтуна язык до добра не доведёт.

      You expect an honest discussion and all you bring to the table are lies?
      I am being honest, take it or leave it.
      And I supply facts for things that are not well known, almost everyone in the world knows 90 percent of everything you said is false.

      You should ask for a job at LieNews or any of the Kremlin sponsored outlets, and if that doesn’t work, I hear Palestine’s media propaganda machine is always looking for new help since they kill off the old help.

      Fare thee well

      Reply
  4. Translator

    Alas, few things remain as certain in this life as death and the Jews being somehow blamed for it.
    Thanks for this very entertaining list!
    Going through it, I must say that creativity is not the paranoid’s strongest trait: most of these themes are lifted almost verbatim from other “iconic” conspiracy topics, like 9/11 and UFOs.

    Reply
  5. beeco

    “Marshall Plan for Germany..” lol, Peter again, this plan was not only charity at all, it was a plan to rebuild after they bombed, plundered, destroyed and removed everything still functioning (including those they needed for building their very own A.bomb) and of worth. Of course it was in no way pure charity but born of the fear that a country flat like this and left to its shambles might “fall” for communism. So they rebuild to prevent communism and of course to be able to influence in economic,financial and political way and to have another self modeled business partner and the possibility to have military bases close to Russia – which is the reason Germany has no treaty of peace until today. You know the saying there is no free breakfast, right? Exactely.

    “Maybe you would prefer mass murderers like Stalin or Mao or medieval religions calling the shots?”
    No, but I do not like those either who killed 200 000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, pure cities with civilians, and just because they could and wanted to test the bomb, or those who killed thousands of Indians in their own country because they did not respect them as the true owners of the country and because of their different color of skin and different philosopy, which was not based on greed, and I do not like those, who think they can do whatever they want in FOREIGN countries and get away with it and those who think they are gods own nation – no they are not, they developed into a country I never ever want to visit again much less live there, because most of their own people are treated like shit by their government and live under standard of the most developing countries while 1-2% get richer every day. I do not like those who send drones to do unjust murder without any trial and with so called collateral damage in FOREIGN countries, just because they think it fit. I do not like those who educated and build ISIS with their own means financially and in training and misjudged what could happen and now we all have have the problem of those fanatics. I do not like those, who impose color coups in a lot of countries, because in the end they want to plunder and gain, like in Ukraine again, where the unspoiled rich earth is sold out to Monsanto and the like and the US infiltrated and bought Government is even changing the law to make is possible for those to grow GMO, and where even before the Donbass movement contracts were given to the company of Joe Bidens son for plundering the natural resources. I could go on..but I think you got the idea by now.
    “And Vietnam was brutal on the locals who suffered massively by the French the Japanese and the USA , but the free world won that war as it was the last country to ever fall to communism. For thst we must all he grateful.”
    No, I am not grateful to a country who uses agent orange on the people again because they do not like their form of government – Nobody, I repeat NOBODY has the right because of ideology or religion or because he thinks himself to be the savior of the free world to kill, maim, slaughter other people in what way ever. Not Hitler, not Stalin and not the US or France or, or – nobody!
    And well you are Kiwi, so what – I am from a neutral country and have seen a lot of this world personally, so I can very well judge on my own too – but we have different world views, here, Peter, and I have to say there has been a time I wasn’t aware of all the stuff going on behind the scenes and did not even care about… but that changed, and by now I am just sad about where the world is going to. We are living in the decline of capitalism, in the decline of an empire which has lived out its time and I fear this is not going to happen without big losses – history shows this over and over again…

    Reply
    • peter

      Which neutral country? Please don’t tell me it is Switzerland, the bankers to the nazis, launderers of stolen Jewish wealth, the finsncial refuge of the world’s criminals? Or Belgium, the truly evil imperilists that enslaved a big chunk of Africa? Or Sweden, that earned blood money from supplying Nazi industry?
      And as for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the destruction of these cities saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Japanese. Chinese. Russian. US. Korean.

      Reply
      • peter

        And capitalism, far from being in decline, is on the brink of true global capitalism. We only have to see how global firms like Microsoft have brought new levels of wealth throughout the world to see this.
        But beeco, we really are straying a little from the topic of this thread!

        Reply
  6. beeco

    yes we do…but glad to have found a decent guy to discuss with even when we are not of one opinion… even not about the decline..I will cease my comments now 🙂

    Reply
    • boggled

      me thinks beeco came with some of the most outlandish conspiracy theories and shows how much of an alternative universe the antiDemocracy people live in.
      Aric’s conspiracy theories are better and relevant to MH17, which is what beeco should have been commenting on.

      Sounds like Jane Fonda in her heyday of the 60’s counter culture, that came back 40 years later and apologized and stated she was wrong, oh so wrong.

      Fare thee well

      Reply

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