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Sputnik’s MH17 Reporting Spins Out of Control

July 24, 2015

By Eliot Higgins

In the long months between the shooting down of Flight MH17 in Ukraine and the publication the Dutch Safety Board report and completion of the criminal investigation various conspiracy theories have been put forward to explain why the reports are taking so long, and how the reports will be inevitable cover ups. Recently Fred Westerbeke, the chief investigator with the Dutch National Prosecutors’ Office investigating the downing of Flight MH17, had to reiterate that the disclosure agreement signed by participants in the investigation, which required all participants to agree on what was published, was only for the duration of the investigation, and was not a way for Ukraine or other countries involved to cover up the true culprit in the crime, as some conspiracy theories had suggested.

This week Sputnik news has published multiple articles on what has been presented as another attempt to cover up the results of the MH17 Dutch Safety Board investigation. Their July 19th article “Ground for Manipulation? MH17 Crash Investigation Results to be Classified” begins with this ominous passage:

The results of the official international investigation into the MH17 Malaysia Airlines plane crash will be classified, the Ukrainian Deputy Foreign Minister for European Integration, Olena Zerkal, said at a briefing on Tuesday.

This is based on statements made by Olena Zerkal about the August 10th meeting where the Dutch Safety Board report will be discussed at a closed door meeting:

The Netherlands will present a report on an investigation into the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17) crash in eastern Ukraine at an August 10 closed session of an international task force investigating the crash but will not publish it for the time being, Ukrainian Deputy Foreign Minister Olena Zerkal said.

“The task force is supposed to meet on August 10 in keeping with Annex 13 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation. They [the Netherlands] will present this report at the working meeting,” Zerkal told Interfax on Tuesday.

The report will only be discussed at this meeting and will not be published because the meeting will be held behind closed doors, she said.

This is not unexpected, as it’s part of the process of the publication of the report, first beginning with the draft report beinghanded to representatives of Australia, Malaysia, Ukraine, the United States, Russia, the United Kingdom and the Netherlands on June 2nd, who were invited to make comment on the report. The expected release date of the report after all the correct publication procedures are followed is October 2015, and nothing in Olena Zerkal’s statement suggests otherwise.

Dutch Safety Board spokeswoman Sara Vernooij confirmed the October release date in response to a question about Olena Zerkal’s statement:

Reports which say that a final report on the Malaysian Boeing crash in Ukraine will be published on August 10, 2015, are not true, Dutch Safety Board spokeswoman Sara Vernooij has said.

“No, we are still working,” she told Interfax, replying to the relevant question.

“We are going to publish the report in October,” Vernooij added.

Undeterred by such statements, Sputnik continued to push the claim Ukraine was blocking publication of the Dutch Safety Board report, first with their interview with Consortium News’ Robert Parry, in an interview titled “Kiev Acts to Classify MH17 Probe Report Points to Continuing US Cover-Up“. It stated Parry had told Sputnik:

Ukraine’s decision to classify the new report on the MH17 airliner crash a year ago strongly suggests that it exonerates Russia and embarrasses Ukraine and the United States.

Thus reiterating the claim Ukraine was responsible for classifying the Dutch Safety Board report. Sputnik followed this with a further report, “Classifying Results of MH17 Crash Probe Unacceptable for Victims – Lawyer“, which states:

Earlier in the week, the Ukrainian Deputy Foreign Minister for European Integration Olena Zerkal claimed that the results of the official MH17 international investigation would not be available publicly.

And then quotes John Beer, a lawyer for some of the families of MH17 victims, as saying:

I think it would be unacceptable if our clients would not be informed about the full results of the investigation.

This is followed by another Sputnik article, “Results of MH17 Crash Investigation Must Be Disclosed – Russia’s EU Envoy“, which again opens with:

Earlier this week, Ukrainian Deputy Foreign Minister for European Integration Olena Zerkal claimed that the results of the official MH17 international investigation would not be made publicly available.

Most of the rest of the article is dedicated to other matters not directly related to MH17, and the opening paragraphs seem only to exist to reiterate the claims made in earlier reports, with even Russia’s permanent representative to the European Union Vladimir Chizhov stating “I don’t think this statement reflects the real situation”, probably unaware of how it had been taken out of context by Sputnik in its reporting. It seems Sputnik couldn’t resist using the quote repeatedly to prop up the conspiracy theory that Ukraine is blocking the publication of the Dutch Safety Board, despite the clear statement from Dutch Safety Board spokeswoman Sara Vernooij that the report would be published in October.

 

Eliot Higgins

Eliot Higgins is the founder of Bellingcat and the Brown Moses Blog. Eliot focuses on the weapons used in the conflict in Syria, and open source investigation tools and techniques.

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83 Comments

  1. boggled

    Okay you proKrelim warriors, since you cannot give any proof Ukraine is responsible because their isn’t any evidence pointing that way.
    Let’s work the other side of the equation.
    Using the wealth of investigative tools that Bellingcat has shown you and taught you to use to prove it is impossible for Russia to have shot down MH17.
    Prove that all the members of the 53rd were on base and never left it.
    Prove that all the BUK’s there were accounted for and never left the base in that time frame of a week before MH17 was destroyed.
    Prove that none of the missiles for a BUK left that base or any other and that all are accounted for.
    Those are just a few examples.
    Prove that it is impossible for a Russian BUK from the 53rd with a Russian BUK crew and Russian BUK missiles to have shot down MH17.
    Bellingcat has shown you many tools and how to use them, can you?

    Fare thee well

    Reply
    • Pianoman

      Boggled, let’s assume for a moment that you’re a member of the 53rd brigade and you and your crew have just realized that you have shot down a civilian airliner. Let us also assume that some people in the military in Russia immediately become aware of this. No matter of Russia’s denial of all of this officially, would a member of the 53rd brigade go and assume that returning straight back home to the motherland would be returning to ‘safety’…? Also, I find this quote from one of Bcat’s previous reports quite relevant:

      “No videos or photographs of the truck that transported Buk 3×2 have surfaced of it traveling between Millerovo and Donetsk, Russia, so the exact route from the Millerovo airbase to Donetsk and on to Verkhnyaya Orekhovka is not known.”

      It’s the job of you, Bellingcat or whoever that accuses Russia to prove that the unit crossed the border with a BUK and fired it. Meanwhile, as far as I recall then the official investigation still hasn’t concluded for sure which weapon was used in bringing the plane down.

      Reply
      • boggled

        Although your right, the report isn’t out.
        From the wealth of evidence from open source, both factual and circumstantial, the finger points towards Russian troops in my mind.
        Everything that I have seen of people trying to blame the Ukraine military is just circumstantial and a bunch of theories, no physical or open source factual evidence.

        Your also right that after the prosecutors or litigating attorneys make a claim, they have to prove that claim.
        The defense, has a right to fight that claim or not.
        I was trying to get some conversation going about what that defense might be.
        Because you and I both know that they are going to fight with A defense.
        They have many avenues, we did it, but it was within international law statutes OR we did it but their were extenuating circumstances OR we did not do it, here is the list of our weapons, troops who are trained on anti aircraft missiles, and our missile list OR …
        It is going to be a year or two before the trial starts, it will be another year or two before the trial finishes I think.

        Anyways, I get tired of the catcalling and old arguments and repeating myself again and again here and in different places.
        So I thought this would be a good challenge for those of the ‘proKremlin’ bent to help out the defense of their side, and possibly that might learn a fact or two.

        It is literally insanity to be pushing a UA SU25 did it.
        The little ignorant comments like “Western media lies” gets old too, because they should get their own house in order before throwing stones.

        In court there is the prosecutors side, the judges side, and the defense side.
        I think we all can guess logically what the prosecutor side is, unless there is some big smoking gun revealed.
        We know the judges play referee and make judgments.
        I was just wondering what the defense side will be and this is one potential issue that may come up.
        The repetitive Kremlin propaganda gets old.
        I thought this might give it a new wrinkle.
        Pianoman if you do not like it, SOWWWWY!
        Others might.
        I thought it may be challenging ‘homework’ and might give some newer discussions as we wait for the report to be released to the public in October, if we live that long.

        Fare thee well

        Reply
      • Andrew

        Painoman:

        “No videos or photographs of the truck that transported Buk 3×2 have surfaced of it traveling between Millerovo and Donetsk, Russia, so the exact route from the Millerovo airbase to Donetsk and on to Verkhnyaya Orekhovka is not known.”

        Its pretty amazing with everyone in Russia and Ukraine having dash cams that although we have literally dozens of dash cam videos of tanks, APC’s, military convoys, and self-propelled howitzers moving about Donetsk and Lugansk Oblasts as well as Russian military convoys within Russia, but there isn’t a single dash-cam video of the BUK on the lowloader even though it supposedly moved about in broad daylight for hours on July 17 without a tarp for hundreds of kilometers. Are we to believe the rebels cleared the highways of all traffic? There also isn’t a dash cam video or photo of the unique truck moving empty from Donetsk to Russia on July 16 or from Russia to Donetsk on July 18.

        If we consider this data point, the uniform sourcing of the three BUK videos and two still photos from the SBU or Ukrainian government assets like Pavel Aleynikov, the failure of the US to release anything besides a marked up power point slide, the absence of the unique truck on the July 17 satelite photo, and now a rebel picture being published from Saur Mogila from the same time as Pavel Aleynikov’s BUK smoke trail and MH17 crash photos that doesn’t show any smoke trail, can we start to apply Ockham’s Razor and say that the Torez and Snizhne pictures and the Zhures, Snizhne, and Lugansk videos we have been shown are either from another day, are misinterpreted, or are made up?

        And Ukraine asserts 3 or 4 other BUK’s were mvoed at the same time. Why are there zero photos or videos of them?

        I find it interesting that Bellingcat had no apparent interest in the Ukraine conflict prior to MH17, even though there were a lot of world level interesting events like the Maidan sniper shootings, the sneaky Russian seizure of Crimea, the Odessa fire, and the Mariupol massacre on video and lending themselves to interesting geolocation and social media investigations. What made the poster of the Snizhne BUK video, for example, think Bellingcat would be interested in it when they had no apparent interest in the whodunnit of Maidan or Odessa?

        Why does it seem like Ukraine is only interesting to many when westerners die, and not when Ukrainians are being killed under mysterious circumstances?

        “would a member of the 53rd brigade”

        And this is a second question that is never answered. If it is to be asserted that the trained military of the 53rd Brigade shot down the plane, how would they make such an elementary mistake in targetting a known civilian jet that could be traced real time with Flight Radar 24 and checked with their own military ATC control? Its not as if anyone thought it was a military bomber – it was supposed to be mistaken for a transport aircraft, so there was no rush to fire and they should have had plenty of time to confirm go for launch to target instead of acting like wild monkeys.

        Its like with the accusations of fraudulent satelite photos, we are supposed to assume the Russian military at its highest levels is full of people who are literally retarded and have never heard of Google Earth, Digitial Globe, and the like, or for that matter the American and European spy satelites, and think they can just make utterly preposterous stuff up and no one will ever know? We are to believe the Russians are so stupid they can’t even make up believable lies? Like Zaroshchesnke. If they are going to lie, why not just make up a lie that the Ukrainian BUK was between Blahodatne and Amvrosiivka? No, we are to believe the heads of the Russian military are beyond stupid. That pretty much sums up the position taken here, and its fairly hard to believe.

        Reply
        • PatSinc

          If you were a Russian or Ukrainian citizen living in a Russian-occupied zone, and your dashcam had captured film which obviously implicated the Russian government and local thugs in shooting down an airliner and which would also identify you, you’d have to be totally suicidal to publish it. That is why there is no publicly available film from dashcams.
          In the West, you would indeed have expected someone to publish if they witnessed something like that, but that’s because we have freedom of expression and people on the whole don’t get murdered for embarrassing the government as they do in Russia.

          Reply
        • boggled

          Why does it seem like Ukraine is only interesting to many when westerners die, and not when Ukrainians are being killed under mysterious circumstances?

          It is a shame to see you bought into the SaveTheDonbas hoax by the Kremlin.
          Many of those crimes followed Kremlin’s actions.
          Kind of like Palestinians claiming you killed our children (while they launched attacks from right alongside schools and by force of arms kept the children in those schools.)
          The west noticed, investigated and found the fraud.
          You still plainly fail to recognize it.
          UA did not have precise munitions and they could have gone about it differently maybe, but they reacted to attacks on their citizens.
          They did not attack them indiscriminately and attack them by targeting them.

          As to the reason why Bellingcat stepped up was because it had to, it was an international disaster.
          It was not localized fighting and potentially a civil war.
          Other media and Westerners were covering and following Ukraine intensely.
          Call them opportunists if you will, they had a service to offer and provided it.
          Other investigations are following Maidan, Odessa, Crimea, Mariupol.
          There are a lot of events in the world and Bellingcat figured they could offer something to the conversation, and they did.
          I have followed events in UA for a long time, and I am not the only one.
          For example
          https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/serhij-leschenko/yanukovych-luxury-residence-and-money-trail-that-leads-to-london

          The rest of your comment speaks for itself with the fact of Kremlin sponsored media, Kremlin organized crime, and a Kremlin covert war waged inside Ukraine’s borders that you believe in.
          It is not the other way around, it is not UA sending fighters to Chechnya and Russia having to respond, it was a Kremlin orchestrated plan from the beginning baked up many years ago.

          As to would the Officer in charge of the four man BUK crew press the launch button if ordered?
          If he was a FSB or GRU special agent, yes.
          If he was a regular officer, he would question his orders but carry them out if he got confirmation they came from high up the ladder.
          SO, no, I do not think this was an accident with over 20 planes passing that corridor that day and not one of them getting shot, just MH17.
          I think it was a Kremlin ordered terrorist act of high magnitude.
          There are too many safeguards built into a BUK for it to be an accident.
          There are methods troops are trained for.
          The BUK officer would not take orders to shoot down a civilian plane from just anyone.
          The terrorists in Donbas were given need to know information and disinformation to prevent an accusation against the Kremlin.
          The cover story of AN26 was passed around by FSB agents.
          As well as a SU25.
          The grunts on the ground had no reason to know what was actually planned, just that something was planned with a BUK.

          The Kremlin thought they could get away with it, but they were caught, as they got caught over and over again in their deceptions.
          Being caught, it prevented a full scale invasion by Russian forces, thank God.
          Criminals who habitually lie get caught up in those lies and make many mistakes.
          The Kremlin has been caught doing both.

          Fare thee well

          Reply
          • Mad Dog

            Never thought of it that way boggled. Makes a lot of sense that the Kremlin ordered the button to be pushed. Guess we have to find out who manned the BUK. Wonder if there are more pictures out there showing the crew as they must have been following along. Wonder if the JIT has any.

  2. boggled

    Okay Kremlin defenders, since you cannot prove Ukraine’s government shot down MH17 with available evidence, and all you have is circumstantial, let’s see if you can prove Russian forces from the 53rd did not do it.

    See if you can work the other side of the equation, since you cannot prove a Ukrainian did it, there is just no evidence, see if you can prove Russian forces did not do it.

    Bellingcat has taught you some of the tools it uses and how to use them.
    I wonder if you can use those tools to the best of their ability.
    Prove it was impossible, or next to impossible, for Russian troops from the 53 with a Russian BUK and Russian missiles to have shot down the plane.
    Get a list of all the 53rd troops and prove they were all on base from the week before July 17, 2014 up until MH17 was destroyed.
    Same with the BUKs, prove they never left the base.
    Same with the missiles from the base.
    Prove the missiles are all accounted for.
    Prove it was not another BUK squad that did it of all the crews Russia has.
    Mostly I would love to see a proof regarding troops and BUKs from the base just outside of Kursk did not do it with open source data that is factual and can be tested..

    Prove them with geo tags, prove them with satellites, prove them with video or photos or documents.
    See if you can.

    Fare thee well

    Reply
    • Sean Lamb

      ” let’s see if you can prove Russian forces from the 53rd did not do it.”

      Boggled, my Kremlin handlers are going to be furious (I expect them to severely dock this month’s vodka allowance) but just from my laptop I don’t think I can do that.

      However, I suggest some approaches that the JIT might like to take which could exonerate the Russians.
      1. Radar signal. Rostov on Don claim that their radar systems would have detected a Snizhne radar signal and they did not. Given I believe classified sources have definitively located the position of the Snizhne Buk Rostov should hand over it’s radar data (an assessment of the reliability of this data can be made later) and a supervised testing of a Buk radar at Snizhne could be performed to check this claim.

      2. Infrared Satellite data. From what I glean from the media, the US originally said their Infrared satellites would be able to detect the track of the missile, then they back-tracked and said they could only detect the explosion. Since the raison -d’etre of the Space-Based Infrared System is missile defense I am little surprised that this data hasn’t been more decisive. The US should hand over the data to the JIT (and later to the rest of us hoi-polloi) and a test firing of Buk to 10 000 meters undertaken to test SBIRS capabilities. Do planes like a Su-25 leave a detectable signature?

      3. Ground operations in Lugansk. According to the BBC on 18th July 2014, the Kiev Ministry of Defense claimed be in possession of south-east Lugansk. The Ukrainian units in the area should hand over their war diaries and other records to ascertain exactly what operations took place on the morning of July 18th.

      4. Air Traffic Control Dnipropetrovsk tapes. According to Air India pilots they were contacted almost immediately to try and establish contact with MH17. That was extremely on-the-ball of them, although maybe they noticed the transponder signal disappearing – still the Dnipropetrovsk ATC tapes might be revealing. Of course it is a mystery what any of three planes were doing in the area at all as they far from normal routes:
      ‘A senior AI official, however, said that the Dreamliner operating as AI 113 was to take a different route. “AI director (operations) SPS Suri had issued a directive to avoid Ukraine’s conflict zone ever since hostilities broke out in the region. We were taking a route that did not fly over the worst affected area that has been recognized as the conflict zone. But after the attack we have decided to avoid Ukraine completely,” ‘

      You are probably are aware of my view that according to the present state of international law, the downing of MH17 while flying in a combat zone is only a crime if it was deliberately targeted. As such you might be interested in the ‘No-Blame’ approach to air accidents of the Australian Transport Safety Board

      http://www.atsb.gov.au/infocus/posts/2012/no-blame-investigations.aspx

      “More simply put, we’re not in the business of blaming people for accidents or incidents – but we are in the business of explaining what happened so we can minimise the chance of it happening again. In shorthand, we say we’re a ‘no blame’ organisation. This approach has major benefits for improving transport safety. Our acting consistently in accordance with the ‘no blame’ principle ensures people are willing to give us lots of sensitive information without fear that the information will be used against them. This helps us understand dimensions of an accident or incident that might otherwise be unknown to us”

      At the moment I see a lot of people throwing around a lot of blame and using the tragedy to drive divisive political agendas – is it any wonder the investigation appears to be floundering?

      Provisionally I would suggest this improvement to air transport safety: While airplanes will always have to overfly conflict zones – Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Libya – provided they are just popping off kalashnikovs this should be no problem. However, immediately the Government responsible for the airspace (ahem or US intelligence, who seemed to spend far more time tracking Buks than warning airline companies of the dangers they represented) becomes aware that high explosive munitions are being hurled to high altitudes and military aircraft report being pinged by target seeking radars, the airspace needs to be immediately closed to civilian traffic and that simply lifting the flight altitude from 31000 feet to 33000 was a grossly inadequate and criminally negligent response to managing this risk

      Reply
      • AnonymousDefender

        2Sean Lamb – July 26th, 2015
        1. Radar signal. Rostov on Don claim that their radar systems would have detected a Snizhne radar signal and they did not.
        ==============
        It is kind of lie.
        a.) Civilian ATR cannot detect SA-11 radar signal.
        b.) Military radars and COMINT equipment can detect SA-11 radar signal from Snizhne.
        c.) Russia want to hide radar signal from Snizhne so hide fact of detection by military equipment. Without full access during international tribunal, we never know if Russian Army detected separatists/russian SA-11 Telar near Snizhne.
        d.) Military radars and COMINT equipment also can detect SA-11 radar signal from Zaroschenskoe but Russia dont provide info about this detection so SA-11 in Zaroschenskoe is russian fake for idiots.
        So we see how Russia play in lie game – dont have radar signal from ukrainian TELAR but also hide radar signal from russian TELAR.

        2. Infrared Satellite data. From what I glean from the media, the US originally said their Infrared satellites would be able to detect the track of the missile, then they back-tracked and said they could only detect the explosion. Since the raison -d’etre of the Space-Based Infrared System is missile defense I am little surprised that this data hasn’t been more decisive. The US should hand over the data to the JIT (and later to the rest of us hoi-polloi) and a test firing of Buk to 10 000 meters undertaken to test SBIRS capabilities. Do planes like a Su-25 leave a detectable signature?
        =================================
        Can you proof you info about detection of IR signal as explosion and only it?

        3. Ground operations in Lugansk. According to the BBC on 18th July 2014, the Kiev Ministry of Defense claimed be in possession of south-east Lugansk. The Ukrainian units in the area should hand over their war diaries and other records to ascertain exactly what operations took place on the morning of July 18th.
        =============
        And what? Ukrainian troops surrounded airport near Luhanks which situated on South-East from Luhansk. Ukrainian troops dont controlled a whole city Luhanks or major roads near it.
        https://www.google.ru/maps/place/48°31'55.0“N+39°23’04.0″E/@48.5319422,39.3844444,14

        4. Air Traffic Control Dnipropetrovsk tapes. According to Air India pilots they were contacted almost immediately to try and establish contact with MH17. That was extremely on-the-ball of them, although maybe they noticed the transponder signal disappearing – still the Dnipropetrovsk ATC tapes might be revealing.
        ========
        Lol, what wrong with ATC tapes? They all provided to DSB use. Russian kremlin bots continue to spread out myth about ATC tapes even after preliminary report with info about it.
        And of course, Mr.Liar wonder:

        Of course it is a mystery what any of three planes were doing in the area at all as they far from normal routes:
        ‘A senior AI official, however, said that the Dreamliner operating as AI 113 was to take a different route. “AI director (operations) SPS Suri had issued a directive to avoid Ukraine’s conflict zone ever since hostilities broke out in the region. We were taking a route that did not fly over the worst affected area that has been recognized as the conflict zone. But after the attack we have decided to avoid Ukraine completely,” ‘
        ====================
        What to do passenger airliners over Ukraine which never attack civilian planes?
        ICAO just forgot to ask terrorists where and when they want to shot down plane with 300 human aboard. So why you lie about FAR FROM NORMAL ROUTES?
        Look on your far from normal routes:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=28&v=hh06SqVx_1Q
        Even Russian Aeroflot and Yamal Airlines flown on this area!

        You are probably are aware of my view that according to the present state of international law, the downing of MH17 while flying in a combat zone is only a crime if it was deliberately targeted.
        =============
        Another lie! We are not DSB. We will blame any terrorists for killing people!

        However, immediately the Government responsible for the airspace (ahem or US intelligence, who seemed to spend far more time tracking Buks than warning airline companies of the dangers they represented) becomes aware that high explosive munitions are being hurled to high altitudes and military aircraft report being pinged by target seeking radars, the airspace needs to be immediately closed to civilian traffic and that simply lifting the flight altitude from 31000 feet to 33000 was a grossly inadequate and criminally negligent response to managing this risk
        =========================
        And final lie! Ukraine dont know definitely about SA-11 presence near Snizhne, it is post-tragedy investigation results when SBU found intercept calls, people posted images with Buk and cams spot towed Buk. But there is no real-time facts. Do you think SBU can hear any call at same time when it done? Then you just idiot which dont know how it work.
        But main thing why Ukraine dont know about danger to civilian airliners is simple:
        It was terrorist action against civilians! Terrorists dont send messages with information about When and Where they want to kill 300 people! Terrorists dont worry about civilian planes in the sky above! They just hit button Fire!
        Ukraine have SA-11 around too. But it is huge difference between usage of ukrainian SA-11 (which have identify and command steps) from russian SA-11 on separarists area (which dont worry about identify of civilian airplanes and dont have command steps for understand what they doing and why and who answer for launch missile)! So Ukraine cannot be blamed for MH17 kill since Ukraine dont break rules of weapon use against civilians! Russia did it, Russia will be blamed!
        Snizhne location is just another example of Russia invasion into Ukraine, but that dont mean Ukraine should answer for bloody PutinRussia invasion and their victims!

        Reply
      • Rob

        Hi sean,

        1)”Rostov on Don claim that their radar systems would have detected a Snizhne radar signal and they did not.”

        When exactly did Rostov on Don claim that their radar systems would have detected a Snizhne radar signal ?
        And which evidence do you have that they did not ?

        2) ” Infrared Satellite data. From what I glean from the media, the US originally said their Infrared satellites would be able to detect the track of the missile, then they back-tracked and said they could only detect the explosion.”

        Actually, they back-tracked the missile and traced it to a field south of Snizhne…
        https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/01/27/is-this-the-launch-site-of-the-missile-that-shot-down-flight-mh17/

        3) “According to the BBC on 18th July 2014, the Kiev Ministry of Defense claimed be in possession of south-east Lugansk.”

        Apart from the fact that you did not give any reference nor evidence that on the 18th that the Kiev Ministry of Defense claimed be in possession of south-east Lugansk, the question remains : why does that make any difference ?

        4) ” the Dnipropetrovsk ATC tapes might be revealing.”
        The Dnipropetrovsk ATC tapes, including their phone conversations with Rostov, were summarized in the Sept 9 2014 Dutch Safety Board preliminary report.
        Did you find anything suspicious in that report ?

        “Of course it is a mystery what any of three planes were doing in the area at all as they far from normal routes”

        There were a minimum of 2 dozen planes flying through the same route on the 17th
        https://apps.correctiv.org/mh17/
        and the same animation suggests another few dozen flights through the Moskow-Simferopol corridor, mostly Russian airliners, over the same area.

        If MH17 were an accident, it is a miracle that no Russian airliner was hit.

        Reply
      • boggled

        There are two investigative bodies, one to ascertain what happened exactly, and what corrective measures could prevent it from happening in the future.

        And another to confirm those results and to pursue those that are responsible.
        The first would not care who owned the BUK or where it went after the disaster.
        The second would determine who brought it there, who fired it, where it went, etc.

        The courts would then decide civil and criminal claims based on the investigation.
        So although the ATSB and various other investigative branches have a ‘no – blame’, their results can be utilized to apportion blame.

        As far as decisions of UA ATC versus airliners, UA shared much of its intelligence and made recommendations without closing airspace.
        The USA also made recommendations as well as other groups.
        Many airliners began to avoid the conflict area accordingly.
        You and I can only begin to guess what intelligence UA had and what governed the decision to not close the airspace and only raise the flight ceiling of international and regular air traffic inside Ukraine.
        My guess, is that the radar pings the military planes received were at 10k and below.
        The highest flight altitude of a aircraft shot down before MH17 was 21,000 feet from ACROSS THE BORDER IN RUSSIAN TERRITORY, and they even identified what plane they thought it was that had done it.

        Did they test the ability of the terrorists with military high altitude flyovers?
        My guess would be yes, they did and did it regularly, it would make logical sense and a simple test for the decision to close air space or not.
        Plus they could gather intelligence from these flyovers.

        As far as the other numbered topics, I would expect that the criminal probe has all those in mind as well as access to whatever evidence it wants.
        I have yet to see a single problem they had with acquiring evidence or supplemental information, including Finnish BUK knowledge.

        The investigation is not ‘floundering’.
        It is finished and they make one to be distributed in August, and another in October.
        They are doing a lot of dotting i’s and crossing t’s and review right now.

        As far as the political question, I would not say it has been without chosen ‘heroes’.
        Both sides have a lot to lose, Russia has had a lot to do with the growing divide.
        Ultimately, there is one party responsible for making the decision to press the button to fire.
        You go where the available evidence takes you.
        The available evidence right now points towards the Kremlin.
        So sure, the Kremlin is going to claim, you guys are being Russiaphobes.
        What career criminal takes blame when they are accused?
        It is far from the truth, we are just going with available evidence and we have rationally countered any claim the Kremlin makes.

        All they have been doing is trying to say UA did it, and place blame somewhere else with a SU25, with a BUK, with Israeli missile, and R60 with a lot of 30mm machine gun fire, with 300 already dead corpses, with MH370, etc.
        They have not once defended the position, that it is impossible for Separatists or Russian forces to have done it.
        They could have, and it would have been a logical thing to do if they were not guilty and had a leg to stand on.

        They had both civilian and military observation of MH17 and were tracking it.
        They could have very easily posted what they know, and would have IF UKRAINE DID IT.
        They did not share that intelligence to you conspiracy theorists or the watchers of Kremlin sponsored media.
        Any guess why?
        You know my guess I think.
        It would support what is known by the followers of open source data.
        And they would rather wait until the report comes out so they could have longer to work on the land bridge to Crimea before they acquire international scrutiny and condemnation.

        Fare thee well.

        Reply
        • Pianoman

          “The highest flight altitude of a aircraft shot down before MH17 was 21,000 feet from ACROSS THE BORDER IN RUSSIAN TERRITORY, and they even identified what plane they thought it was that had done it.”

          I have seen little solid evidence to prove that this plane was flying at 21,000 feet when it was shot down, and even less proof that it would have been shot down from Russian territory. Rebels claimed that they shot it down with MANPADS, for all that I can recall.

          “They have not once defended the position, that it is impossible for Separatists or Russian forces to have done it.”

          The claim from the very beginning has been that separatists did not have access to equipment capable of shooting down planes at such altitudes. With exception to the AN-26 shootdown on the 14th of July which you referred to, where there are reasons to doubt the Ukrainian version claiming that the plane was flying at such a high altitude, there is not a single incident where the separatists would have used a BUK to shoot a plane down. Their equipment was clearly more basic than that. A question worth asking is why Ukraine at all had full BUK units in that region, since the separatists didn’t have planes.

          Reply
          • boggled

            Pianoman, to that last sentence I say, to slow down a Russian invasion force as Uncle vova was trying gain justification for in media.
            They kept those behind the front line so as to prevent terrorists from capturing a working BUK.
            I see reason for having weapons in the region, but I have yet to see one reported on the front line or charging into terrorist controlled territory.
            No reason to lose one to your enemy that is worth millions of dollars and no reason to increase their capabilities to destroy your own planes.
            Common expected military tactics.

            As to the rest, maybe you should interview the pilot as to why he stated that he was flying at that altitude and got attacked by a MiG29 on the RF side of the border.
            There is little reason to doubt the factual numbers and claims unless you have evidence against it.
            And separatists claiming MANPADS destroyed it, IS NOT enough evidence to counter the report from the pilot, which lists specifically, his altitude, his jet, what he was attacked with, and the location he was attacked from.

            Fare thee well

          • AnonymousDefender

            2Pianoman – July 26th, 2015
            A question worth asking is why Ukraine at all had full BUK units in that region, since the separatists didn’t have planes.
            ============================================
            What region you mean? Ukraine have SA-11 as country air defense on distance equal to strike range of missile 9M38M1 (35 km) from ukrainian-russian border.
            It is right of any country guard borders from enemies.
            So why you blame Ukraine for defend border? You should redirect your question to Russia with 4th ARMY of Air Force and Air defense near ukrainian-russian border.

          • Rob

            Pianoman said “I have seen little solid evidence to prove that this plane was flying at 21,000 feet when it was shot down, ”

            The Ukrainians thought that it was reason enough to increase the flight level from 26,000 to 32,000 ft.

            I guess they were more conservative than you were.

    • Pianoman

      Boggled,
      I’m afraid I’m having troubles catching up with the speed of your posts, but just a brief thought: If you are convinced that members of the 53rd brigade came to Ukraine with a BUK and fired the fatal shot, the least thing you have to do is prove that they crossed the border. As far as I recall, the Bellingcat report that tracked their movements could not prove as much (correct me if I’m wrong!). As Bellingcat kept track on their social network profiles, shouldn’t it be possible to extract login/logout data from there, which would pinpoint their locations at various times? Or, if we are assuming that they weren’t online while they were in Ukraine, that there would be a long gap of logins around July 16-18th?

      Reply
      • boggled

        To be honest, I think the BUK was from that base and the crew transported with it until the Ukraine border.
        Then they took a train back home under armed guard and kept silenced during that time.

        The crew to man the BUK was waiting at the Ukraine border.
        They were GRU special operatives that knew the mission, a civilian airliner.

        Either that or an officer from the FSB took over that was fully versed in BUK operation and brought the crew with him and kept them silent.
        Went with the crew, kicked them out of the cabin and killed them in the field there and then the officer launched the missile himself.
        Or he did the launch then killed them afterwards.
        And someone else is making the posts now and after July 17th keeping up the charade until the accounts are deleted.

        I know it sounds conspiracy theorist or Tom Clancy-ish, but it fits.
        That is my theory and it is out there, but is a possible scenario that works.
        And if it was an intentional planned shoot down of a civilian airliner, which I believe it is and I believe the Polish plane TU-154 was possibly but not by bombs – intentional, there are no depths to the deception that would be planned to carry it out.
        with vova at the helm.

        Fare thee well

        Reply
        • Pianoman

          These conspiracy theories certainly do interesting things to your overall credibility. If your worldview would be different, and you would believe that the US was the root of ‘evil’ in the world rather than the Kremlin, you’d be telling us that 9/11 was an inside job, that the moonlandings were a hoax, and that FEMA camps are real. Anyhow, since uncle Vova is the bad guy, your perception is somewhat different. So:

          GRU operatives knowingly shot down a civilian airliner. Alternatively, FSB took over, killed the crew and pressed the launch button. Additionally, the Russians are to blame for the TU-154 accident – being half-Polish I do know that case very well, and can’t fathom how anyone could see it as anything else than an accident. Then again, my Polish grandparents were in Latvia when it happened and when the news came, the Latvians in their surroundings immediately said that it was ‘the Russians’ that did it. But go to Poland, and the situation will be very different. In Poland, a good amount of people that liked the president believe that a political opponent is responsible for planning that event.

          Of course, I cannot stop you from believing whatever madness out there that fits your perception of the world. But if you want to convince the world that this is what happened, you are going to have to offer some solid evidence. I’m not awfully impressed by your theories. Next thing you’ll say, without evidence to back it up, is that Putin killed Politkovskaya, ordered the apartment bombings in 1999, that the Moscow theatre hostage crisis was set up by the Kremlin, and whatnot…Again, if your views would be different, all of this would translate to believing things I outlined about the US above – chemtrails, FEMA camps, 9/11 being an inside job, etc. It is interesting to note that anyone believing the latter about the US will be called a mad conspiracy theorist, while believing the most outlandish unsubstantiated theories about Russia is just normal.

          Either way, until you prove that a BUK missile left the 53rd brigade’s base and moved into Ukraine, you won’t impress me.

          So long!

          Reply
          • boggled

            Pianoman do not forget about the Beslan massacre, which was part of his plans.
            We could add Georgian war, and so many other items.
            Yup, the Kremlin’s actions are that bad and those are events that happened with the Kremlin in full control.
            And have evidence and facts and statements.
            Not like your chem trails, moon landing, FEMA, etc conspiracy theories.

            Just because they have not been prosecuted in Russia, doesn’t make one biit of difference, Putin and his cronies are the government and their corruption has it under a firm grasp.
            And no, the international community does not have the right to prosecute crimes committed inside RF by Putin.
            Anymore then the global community has rights to prosecute BHO for forcing socialist healthcare system on everyone.
            That is up to the American justice system to work out their problems on American soil.
            When the Kremlin is guilty inside another country with the victims being global, then yes, the international community has a right to set up a tribunal and take all those responsible to court.

            It is interesting to see you follow the USA is evil and consider the conspiracy theories around them your own.

            Sorry, that short bus left hours ago.

            While most all of your conspiracy theories have been debunked, we will have to see if mine is validated by the evidence and investigative reports and the court case or not.
            It may not be.
            I do not know what is in the reports from investigators.
            And as far as the courts go, prosecutors work with the evidence with what they can prove to the judges.
            If there is not enough evidence to prove my theory is prosecuted in court, it does not mean it is not valid and fitting within the framework of what happened.
            It just means they did not have enough evidence to prove it.
            Just like other conspiracy theories in the past that have proved out true, when the evidence is there, the case is reopened.
            Just like new facts or evidence like DNA for a convicted murders sets the convicted murderer free.
            What will the investigators found, what the prosecutors attempt to prove, what will the charges be and what will be decisions of the courts will be all different items.
            If there is evidence to support my thoughts, they will follow them.
            If their isn’t they will work to what they can prove in a court of law.
            Obviously it will not be in the DSB report released to the public.
            Probably won’t be in the JIT report either.
            I would imagine it is a classified part of court proceedings.
            If it is a fact, they may become totally classified in the name of international security.
            But in the name of transparency, it may be brought in charges and become a new Nuremberg type trial, we shall see.
            But it fits within what I know now.
            There may be something that I learn that totally discounts it.
            As I have stated, I do not count UA out completely as a suspect right now or the Soldiers of Fortune and FSB and GRU running the show in Eastern Ukraine.
            I have my opinion and I think you can have yours too, as long as it fits in the boundaries of what we know currently. Mine does.

            But, it may come out I am right, we shall see, this is a large international matter and it may not be classified.

            I think the DSB report will end the SU25 theorists.
            But we will not know much more then that, we will know weapon, missile, warhead and things relating to the airplane.
            I do not think they will specify launch area though.
            That will be part of the JIT report.
            Until court though, we may not have access to all the evidence.
            Which I am fine with.
            But that means, we may not have full evidence of those facts until the hearing because they have been transferred to investigators and witnesses have signed agreements not to talk about their evidence until that time.
            Proving that any BUK missile left the base is easy, proving it went into UA through a border the RF controls and proving a base missile was culprit is difficult but not impossible considering the numbers on the shell of the missile.
            But that we may not know until JIT report.
            Proving a BUK left the base and entered Ukraine is not impossible but proving the BUK that left the base into Ukraine and is the culprit is harder.
            However, proving RF equipment is inside Ukraine that only RF military has access to is very easy.
            The prosecutors and investigators have a long trail and a lot of items to prove.
            The Kremlin is not going to come out smelling like roses in this one.

            Fare thee well

  3. v1234

    More than 50 years ago the plane of no other than UN secretary general was shut down. Even today US & Britain refuse to give evidence on the case. That’s how much US respects UN and open investigation.

    Reply
      • boggled

        I am not sure where you come up with – US & Britain refuse to give evidence on the case, their is classified info and a reason it is classified.

        And although I am not extremely familiar with the incident, I will encourage you to read the study or report and what they found.

        My belief from what I read, leads me to it being another Soviet operation.
        You call in and distract and give info that points one way to discredit an enemy, such as the recording and transcript supposedly read by American agents opening up now, while actually doing the crime yourself.
        Soviets had reasons at the time of JFK to work to discredit USA or Western forces as they were involved with the Cuban nukes.
        This could have been one of those distractions for the international community.
        They wanted Europe to go to war with Britain and the USA and then the Kremlin would be left the only Superpower standing.
        I encourage you to read and give your thoughts on the article –
        http://www.zambianwatchdog.com/cia-could-have-shot-dag-hammarskjold-plane-says-new-investigative-bookbook/
        and
        http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/07/06/panel-reports-new-information-about-possible-aerial-attack-on-dag-hammarskjold/

        Although the cold war was going at the time and yes, it could have been a CIA operation.
        With a recorded pilot’s conversation being reportedly sent to a known NSA operative 3000 miles away, I doubt it.
        USA CIA doing that op like others would have done it silently and a professional agent would have remained silent during the whole trip.
        Something smells fishy to me.
        So to the Kremlin agents and people like you promoting this investigation, be careful what you wish for, the investigation may actually come back and bite you as it exposes the facts.
        And that is what I believe will come out of this.
        The recording was staged, I believe, and the guilt ends up lying with Russian agents in the area.
        And to prevent a nuclear war, the incident was kept quiet as to what the USA and Britain and others, such as South Africa, actually knew.
        That is what I imagine in still classified files relating to the incident, to prevent an international nuclear war with what they knew, they sat on information..

        There are two different thoughts being discussed about what caused this disaster.
        A a bomb placed in the wheel bay of the airplane or the shoot down reported on the recording.
        I think both are wrong, and it was a Soviet covert op with a SAM or military jet that took it down.
        Your suggestion and others that it could have been a covert CIA op with a bomb that did not go off then they sent an aircraft after it, is possible, but not probable in what I read.
        Evidence will come out of the investigation, and will they hide the report in names of international peace again?
        Probably not this time.
        Be careful what you hunt for, it may leave a bitter taste in your mouth instead of your intended target.

        Fare thee well

        Reply
          • boggled

            David Jones, I admitted that, and I also added why I think why they classified it at the time and why they still keep it classified.
            It was a Soviet assassination of a UN leader, that if true evidence was brought to light, the Soviets would have started a nuke war.
            So they classified it.
            To keep it classified, they are preventing exposure of agents inside RedSquare most likely and deep within the FSB.

            It sounds like a conspiracy theory of the highest magnitude, but it seems to make sense more sense then what the article is trying to infer, that it was a CIA plot.
            I did not say that was impossible, but I see something more to it then that.

            As I say, be careful what secrets you want exposed, shall we say polonium is not making the Kremlin or vova look to good, how would a Soviet assassination of a UN leader look?
            Would that be grounds for dismissing the RF from the UNSC at the least?

            Regardless, that has little to do with the articles topic.
            More Russian FSB distraction methods on v1234 part?

            Fare thee well

          • Rob

            David Jones,
            What makes you think that your article titled “Husband Suspected Of Cheating Can’t Comment On Operational Matters” has anything to do with MH17 ?

    • PatSinc

      Since his plane crashed in Africa, was a Swedish plane, no sign of any bomb or missile was found and the US weren’t in control of the territory below, it’s hard to see the parallel with a situation where a plane is known to have been shot down by a Russian manufactured weapon, crashing on pro-Russian separatist controlled territory adjoining the border of Russia. The Russian government accepts the above as true, but won’t even allow a tribunal to be set up.

      Reply
    • Alexander

      Dear boggled, stopfake not the most reliable resource … they spread fakes …
      I’m sorry I did not answer you last comments (( I wrote a long comment and press submit, comments just disappeared …

      Reply
      • Alexander

        Do you remember the boy crucified, Ukrainian media published a every other day like this …

        Reply
        • boggled

          Alexander, the torture basements, the Red Cross people getting kidnapped, the POWs getting marched spit and beaten on as violation of laws of war, the intentional targeting of civilians by terrorists artillery groups, the human shields, the Russian soldiers crossing into Ukraine with advanced lethal only Russian military used equipment, the Russian BUK, the MANPADS, the Russians launching attacks across the border into Ukraine, the hidden deaths of Russian soldiers from Pskov, the fake referendums, little green men are actually Russian troops — ALL TRUE.

          Did SBU release misinformation to protect their soldiers in the battlefield that got printed in stories of UA media?
          Probably, they have been trained by GRU agents and KGB ones before that.
          However, they are trying to turn over a new leaf.
          And most all of it is factual and what they know.
          Do a few bloggers stretch the truth, or low grade papers?
          Possibly, so you should not read them and tell others not to count on them for factual information.
          The Kremlin and vova’s cronies and Kremlin sponsored media are not turning over a new leaf.
          Do you remember the day LifeNews was on the scene of MH17 crash site?
          Do you remember them reporting DNR shot down an AN26 that day?
          How convenient all of them are such good bedfellows.
          phosphorus munitions, crucified child, UA military targeting civilians, MH17 is full of dead bodies, SU25, Israeli missile from UA jet, UA BUK, Russian fake satellite images, fake SU25 plane printed on Satellite image of airliner firing a missile while vova watch, little green men – I am sick of all their habitual lies.

          stopfake exposes fakes, they do not spread fake stories, sorry.
          Unless you can prove one instance, your statement fails in proving me wrong in this.

          As far as your comment not showing up, I suggest to you and other comment makers, copy your whole post before you hit ‘submit’
          It has happened to me after I made a long comment too.
          Copy it so you can ‘paste’ it if it fails to show up when page refreshes after hitting submit.
          Good practice for other comment boards also, this is not the only one I notice it happening on.
          Especially important when writing longer post to avoid spamming the board.
          Hopefully Sashka you can elaborate more on your comment you attempted to make.

          Fare thee well

          Reply
        • Rob

          Alexander said “Do you remember the boy crucified?”

          No. Can you refresh my memory ?

          Reply
  4. Alexander

    http://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/photo/gbcnbvbnvbn-392002.html about torture…..

    stopfake remove their fakes…. https://twitter.com/stopfakingnews/status/533936632294948864

    but something that remains ….
    “Secondly, the action had nothing to do with the children. This mall really is a children’s educational center “Scrabble”, but then, June 20, the children were not there (even the “News” could not find and display in a frame or a child).”
    https://youtu.be/z5pZX_AC-VY?t=2m1s
    children are not there …. and in the video do not hear children….

    http://www.stopfake.org/fejk-defolt-dvuh-krupnejshih-ukrainskih-bankov-neizbezhen/

    it says that the Russian media wrote “The default of the two largest Ukrainian banks is inevitable” ….
    In the bottom of the page explains that “default is not threatened banks, but only to some of the largest banks Eurobonds”. If you look at the screenshots that it defaulted on Eurobonds say in all the news …. so where fake?

    Think about it! Rebels fired MANPADS and put in air conditioning!
    http://ru.tsn.ua/ukrayina/tsn-poluchila-unikalnoe-video-gde-luganskuyu-oga-yakoby-rasstrelivayut-iz-pzrk-369265.html

    Video from the scene of fire https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqUnwwX-CYA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i61ZmMPWnXk
    Version with air conditioning spread all media in Ukraine….

    About the fact that the rebels themselves shelled the city in which themselves living in the Ukrainian media love to confess every day …

    Reply
    • Rob

      From your reference, the key allegations seem to be like this :

      “Some prisoners were forced to rape other prisoners, he added. “(Tornado fighters) stripped prisoners naked,put them on a concrete floor and poured water on them,” Matios said. “They put a bare electric cable on their heads and genitalia.”

      Tornado fighters deny the charges.”

      Now, I have no clue who these “Tornado” fighters are, nor what you believe their relation to MH17 is. But the above allegations sound rather far fetched.

      Reply
      • Alexander

        to Rob
        We talked about the information war between Ukraine and Russia
        Yes, many Russian media reported on the alleged fact that the Ukrainian military crucified boy …
        http://news.bigmir.net/ukraine/830567-MVD-ystanovilo-lichnost-jenshini-rasskazavshei-o-raspyatom-rebenke-v-Slavyanske

        Yes, it was unverified information ….

        But if you read the media in Ukraine, they did not check the information in the largest Ukrainian media several times a week, love to confess unverified info, and then forget to refute ….
        If no one in Ukraine more than a year did not see what they are doing Battalion tornadoes this suggests that the authorities did not control the situation….

        During the crash itself mh17 live watched talked about downed military AN … Prior to that, too, had a lot of stories about the downed aircraft and helicopters of the rebels, even if it is dropped because of technical faults …. This is not evidence.

        In my humble opinion shoot down the plane could rebels and Ukrainian military, and to find out which of them shot down the plane and need to conduct an open investigation and not a secret …

        PS
        I forgot to add a link to the last post to the story on the cake stopfake
        http://www.stopfake.org/lozh-storonniki-majdana-v-toronto-prinesli-detyam-tort-s-maternoj-nadpisyu/

        Reply
        • boggled

          Thank you for adding the link.
          I was curious after reading comments and seeing video.

          Your last statement is the most telling.
          You believe the Kremlin sponsored propaganda.
          There is not a secret investigation, the results and evidence will be made available to the public in October.
          In a week or two, the governments of Russia and Ukraine will be released part of the information.
          Will there be leaks of it, I do not know.
          For now, we wait or we do as Bellingcat and other investigators and source from what public information there is.
          There are three suspects, UA, RF, and RF funded terrorists.
          NONE of them have rights to be part of the investigation because the are suspects.
          As far as Russia goes, none of its citizens were murdered, it did not get destroyed inside Russia, and it was not their plane.
          They have no right to know all the facts and evidence before results come out and are given to them.
          Same with public, we will know when they release the report.
          Think of criminal investigation where you live.
          Do LEO’s and prosecutor and courts tell suspect investigations are going on about them?
          Do suspects even have access to that while they are in jail and waiting for court?
          There is a limited amount the suspect knows before court case about what prosecutor knows.
          Once the investigation and criminal charges are made ready, they make arrests and more info is brought.
          So they can catch criminals before they run.
          It is little different in case of MH17, but very similar.

          It really is a shame you buy and repeat that lie.
          The investigation is following normal protocols with airplane disasters.
          Open your eyes, shut of Kremlin funded media, and see the world is a lot different then what your taught.

          Fare thee well

          Reply
      • boggled

        Sashka, a long list of items, and I am glad you got them all in.
        Comment boards usually frown on a lot of links in one comment, FYI.
        1 – torture – someone is lying. Personally I do not think it is Tornado.
        AS it states, there is no declaration of truth right now, both sides deny what they are accused of, but the accusation against Tornado might be a paid witness and accuser.
        And as demonstrated near the end of the article, there is some truth in Tornado’s statements about smuggling.
        I am guessing there is a little amount of lying on Tornado’s side and what may be considered torture in Western world is actually common place in Russian UA interrogations for even regular criminals.
        These are probably what they are actually guilty of.
        They were treated this way when arrested before, so they acted the same way.

        Maybe some of the ‘torture’ was committed, but not all the accusations sound valid to me.
        I think the ‘star witness’ was paid and exaggerating his story to get Tornado taken out of the region so the smuggling operation could go on.

        Stopfake removes stories as they are redacted by Russian media, the not always are so there is a long list of factual stories at stopfake.
        The story you pointed out was trying to say that Russian news PUSHED the story of Ukrainian banks defaulting and going bankrupt.
        What actually happened was Fitch made a statement that two of Ukraine’s banks that held Eurobonds were bound to default on those Eurobonds.
        There is a difference, and that is what stopfake was reporting.
        It is Kremlin propaganda way of twisting truth to make someone else look bad that they do not like.
        There is a LONG lists of fake stories, twisted stories, and stories with lies in them all promoted and created by Kremlin sponsored media as well as Russian nationalists.
        There is a long list of evidence the will get the people who created the lies of “SavetheDonbas’ that will be prosecuted for their lies and events they actually did.
        The lists of torture, kidnapping, beatings, executions, human shields, murders at checkpoints will be prosecuted by the UN as well as in UA.
        I am sorry you do not like it.
        There is evidence pro UA militias and government have done some abuses of law, and those will be prosecuted as well.
        HOWEVER, the large part of atrocities are done by the terrorist and Russian soldiers themselves against innocents, and that is their downfall.
        Evidence is there, and the list of criminals is a long one and getting longer everyday as more and more areas are free and terrorist activities are exposed by gathered intelligence.
        Day of reckoning is coming for the criminals and liars of Donbas, and it is soon.
        The Kremlin soldiers cannot silence them all, and neither can they silence the activities done by the criminals of Crimea.
        People speak, and Kremlin stooges will fall like dominoes.
        The question will be in whose jails they belong?
        Serbians got prosecuted for their crimes, Donbas and Crimean criminals willl also.
        6k dead in Donbas, and no, that was not all by UA shelling and targeting civilian buildings in war zone.
        MOST of that was the criminals of Donbas themselves.
        As well as the murder of 300 people on MH17.

        Fare thee well

        Reply
  5. Alexander

    You keep talking about the Kremlin’s propaganda but do not notice the western … If news from Russian media propaganda! If something is reported by Western media is an independent, thorough and objective opinion ….
    they simply show only what suits them …. the rest are silent ….

    Certainly believing one side of the conflict is impossible to obtain objective information ….

    Reply
    • PatSinc

      There is a difference in that Western media enjoys a freedom of expression which Russian media doesn’t. In the West, journalists are allowed to write articles criticising those in power without being murdered, threatened and forced into exile, or having their businesses closed down. Western mass media on the whole is not directly funded by governments.
      In Russia, the vast majority of the newsflow is directly controlled by the government and other channels are even legislated against and/ or blocked.
      The reason you may find people taking Western viewpoints to be unreasonable is that you’re coming from a background where you have no independent institutions to establish fact and distinguish it from falsehood.

      Reply
    • boggled

      Sashka, I did not say all Russian media was Kremlin propaganda, mainly Kremlin sponsored media is Kremlin propaganda, it is difference.
      I cite many different ones in my comments that I think are factual and worth looking at Russian journalists and media sources..
      And EVEN some journalists even on RT have some credibility in their articles, but not the whole article.
      Do you understand that the Kremlin or its proxies have murdered over 300 journalists since 1991?

      Of course you can come back to me and say they are never proven.
      They are never proven in Russia, your right, because the Kremlin owns the courts.
      They are proven outside Russia though with enough evidence to make critical assessment and investigation.

      If you believe Kremlin sponsored media is unbiased, independent and tells the truth all the time, I encourage you to look what the Russian MoD got caught lying about.
      IF they lie about important issue like this and fabricate items, what will they do in Kremlin sponsored media?!?!?!

      The western media attempts to corroborate its story by at least three sources before it puts it in the news.
      Kremlin sponsored media manufactures stories with paid actors and calls it news.

      And yes, I know about western media being biased.
      HuffPost is biased against Republicans.
      FoxNews has bias against Dems but is less biased then HuffPost.
      MSNBC is biased, CNN is middle of the road leaning Dem.
      same for newspapers and others.
      Some have more pro environment view then others.
      That is their choice, if that is news they want to produce.
      Market decide who read and watch them.
      AlJ is biased and a proDem paper, but they are a source of information when others are lacking on covering stories you might find important.
      Kremlin propaganda is full of lies, and that I try to show.
      Western media twist truth like Kremlin propaganda, but journalists are fired if they write an article or state slander.
      Truth is a twisted thing, yes.
      BUT when have you heard of Kremlin sponsored media retracting a story when it clearly propaganda?
      When have they told truth about crucified child on major network inside Russia?
      There are half truths, white lies, lies, and propaganda.
      In Russia, you mainly have Kremlin sponsored propaganda which use all for purpose of disguising global truths.
      I do not only believe Kremlin media. I do not only believe UA media.
      I do not only believe FoxNews, I do not believe only Bellingcat.

      Do I trust WhiteHouse Spokesperson is telling truth?
      Yes, but I trust also that he not telling whole truth just answer of partial truth usually to staged reporter question part of time.
      Not all reporters questions are staged though.
      Many times spokesperson get surprised.

      I do my research and those that have more credibility with truth, I will read more often. Market decision.

      You give Kremlin sponsored media trust, because most of the articles there you can believe, but only if you look at only Kremlin supporting media.
      But if you dig deeper, there are many MANY deceptions in Kremlin media.
      And that I tried to show you.
      Read from Russian’s who do not live in Russia but write in Russian or other Slavic language that have proWest viewpoint and make decision about their statements.

      SaveTheDonbas is lie, ethnic Russian in danger is lie, Russian language is forbidden IS lie, Crimea is ours is lie, fascist junta is lie and they continue.
      Kremlin media is famous for point at other people when they actually are guilty of crime themselves.

      They complain of Bandera collaborate with Hitler.
      Stalin agreement with Hitler is bigger.
      The complain of fascist in UA.
      RF has more the half of world population of fascists.
      They complain of Russian language being forbidden.
      They ban Ukrainian from being taught in Crimea.
      List is long and many.
      Sorry you do not like it, but it is the truth.
      Only Russians can change Kremlin and Russia future.
      Right now it look not so good.
      And Russians, they do this to themselves.

      You can take red or blue pill, it is your choice and your families future.

      You can turn off Kremlin sponsored media, or follow only it.

      The reason why this is important to me?
      Your country has lots of nukes pointed at me, and if your leaders willing to lie in media, and on satellite images, what else will they do in future?!?!?
      You know the fact of the amount of corruption in Russia and organized crime and that it finds home in Moscow..
      That scares me for my family.

      Fare thee well

      Reply
      • Alexander

        I was born and raised in the Ukraine …. living in Moldova Russian citizenship …. I do not have …. therefore not appropriate to speak of my leader and my country …. Before we continue to question … In what the country you live?

        Reply
  6. boggled

    Not Ukrainian citizenship if your born in Ukraine and lived your early life there?
    You personally had it changed?
    I really haven’t inquired about changing citizenship in Eastern European countries.
    Does it vary by country?
    I did not know people did it.
    Thank you for being honest.
    But is it only partially? I did not think you could get Russian citizenship unless you live on Russian soil.
    That means either your citizenship could come from the few RF satellite countries or from Russia mainland itself to claim that citizenship.
    I am guessing Transdniestria, but it could be Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia, Crimea or Donbas region.
    Those are the only ones giving out citizenship, unless some special thing done at the embassy, which is usually reserved for espionage agents.

    I have heard that Moldova is a difficult place to live, but people do.
    I would have imagined it would have been better to go to SVK or RO after that, their employment situation is better.

    Anyways, I get off track.
    I guess you could not tell what nation I am from because RF has it nukes trained on most nations of the world and vova has threatened them all with nuclear blackmail.
    Don’t you think that is kind of strange?
    I am American, if you couldn’t guess. Born here.
    Traveled here and there and old enough to have been a few places.
    Had many long talks with exchange students I met over the years.
    Both here and in their home country when I visit.
    Stopped in a few places along the way and picked up a few tidbits here and there and made different friends.
    I have fond memories of SVK..
    And yes, a few exchange student people I have called friends have been Russians also who I am glad to have made friends with and will cherish their friendship til I die.
    I was lucky though, I heard of others that meet Russians are not so lucky in finding a friend and find a, how to put this politely, I can’t I choose not to say it.

    So if you claim Russian citizenship, then your a Russian.
    Your leader is vova, and my comments apply to you as well as naturalized Russians, Russians born on Russia’s soil.
    If you were born Ukrainian and grew up a lot of your life there, you know many things as well of what I speak.
    You must have considered them rumors with no truth because they speak good of the evil USA and bad about Moscow.
    I can’t fault what you grew up watching or hearing.
    Anymore then I can fault young Palestinians who have cartoon show propaganda telling the kids to kill the evil Israeli from an early age.
    I can fault the leadership and those that perpetuate the lie even though they know the truth, like Kremlin sponsored media.
    Like I say, I try not to pass judgment on all Russian people, but I will pass judgment on those in leadership positions who continue the lie for their own power.
    Maybe you have a photo on your wall of vova?
    If me talking about vova the recalcitrant child offends you, tough.
    He gained his reputations by his actions.
    And I am sure he gained enough favor in your eyes if you have a photo of him on your wall.
    Some Americans have photos of him giving them medals and the like him, some have them because the can, to me he is not that important.
    And I will give him criticism within reason.
    He has earned it.
    Can’t be everyone’s favorite.
    Enough of my history?

    Fare thee well

    Reply
  7. Alexander

    I have dual citizenship, Ukraine and Moldova. Get Russian citizenship is not an issue for the citizens of the former Soviet Union … But you are very prophetically, the city in which I live Bender (Transnistria). I’m a web programmer by profession and working remotely, the majority of employers with Moscow, is engaged in the development and technical support online stores and other sites …

    On the walls of the house does not exactly have pictures of Putin, there is one in the VC but he was there with Obama …..

    Reply
    • boggled

      Crazy life you lead to be citizen of three different nations.
      Who to know to call home?
      In Transnistria you take work where you can get it, eh?
      Moscow does employ a lot of people remotely.

      Interesting place to have the photo of the two BS artists and manipulators together.
      Fitting place for politicians, no?
      Or was place you had hopes for two governments to finally work together?
      They say it is thinking man’s room.
      Sounds like your old enough, for talking of having been born in Soviet days, to have learned a few things about life and the world and history.
      Soviet, America, Europe, current RF and how you feel about each.
      Or do you have many questions still and your heart open?
      Do you wish to return to UA?
      Eben in Bender you are in heart of conflict also.
      A city torn by separation, inside a separatist’s nation, inside a nation torn by separation…with RF military noticed daily….
      Do you see your situation being a good healthy result for what RF trying to do in regions of Kryme and Donbas?
      What you see of life now, is what those sections see 10 years of tomorrow if Moscow have luck.
      Do you think this good future for them?

      It is never too late to learn, and yes you can teach old dog new tricks.
      I try to learn new and keep my eyes open and see different sunrise every day.

      Fare thee well

      Reply
      • Alexander

        Язык оригинала: английский
        “Who to know to call home?”
        I do not understand this issue ((
        “In Transnistria you take work where you can get it, eh?”
        In Transnistria have a job but the salary below …

        vk is a Russian social network, analogue of Fasebook …

        “Sounds like your old enough, for talking of having been born in Soviet days, to have learned a few things about life and the world and history.”
        Yes, I am 29 years old …

        “Soviet, America, Europe, current RF and how you feel about each.”
        The Soviet Union is no more, and I was too little to judge it …
        My attitude towards US is not bad, irritating foreign policy … why meddle in the affairs of all countries, even if it’s on the other side of the world …
        To Europe, is not bad attitude …
        Or do you have many questions still and your heart open?
        Do you wish to return to UA? ”
        I regularly visit to Ukraine, and I live not bad in Bender…

        “Eben in Bender you are in heart of conflict also.
        A city torn by separation, inside a separatist’s nation, inside a nation torn by separation … with RF military noticed daily ….
        Do you see your situation being a good healthy result for what RF trying to do in regions of Kryme and Donbas? ”
        In ’92 the conflict in Transnistria began Moldovan nationalists (Romania), the conflict in Ukraine also began nationalists …
        If not for the Russian army of 14, victims of the conflict would be many times more ….
        Most of the Russian military in Transdniestria residents of Transnistria …

        If part of the population of Moldova wants to join Romania, and the other part to the Russian who is the separatists?

        “Do you see your situation being a good healthy result for what RF trying to do in regions of Kryme and Donbas?
        What you see of life now, is what those sections see 10 years of tomorrow if Moscow have luck.
        Do you think this good future for them? ”
        In Crimea and Donbas good prospects, they have a common border with Russia (I was against the referendum in the Crimea because he knew he permanently secede from Ukraine) but if not join the Crimea to Russia on the other side of the fighting is being held in the Crimea and in the Donbas …

        You probably heard that after the collapse of Soviet union, many residents of the Crimea Peninsula wanted to stay with Russia?
        As the peninsula came “friendship train” with the nationalists from the western regions, and they went there not rest …
        That’s why the Crimea was an autonomous republic of Ukraine …

        By the way, I am from the western regions of Ukraine and the Ukrainian language well know, but as you might have guessed not support nationalists…

        Reply
        • boggled

          Citizenship from three different countries to me means three different identities inside me pulling me apart.
          I can understand dual citizenship, home of mother and father, and three citizenship of mother father and place you call home.
          Usually though in your heart you only claim one, the rest are just visa passes.
          Even though my genealogical history is Dutch and French and British and American, I am American citizen, this was place I am born, I do not claim other citizenship.
          It seems more complicated for you, it maybe Soviet issue I never discuss with others.

          Sorry, I thought you did VC as similar to WC of Europe talk for bathroom.
          And W was change for V because of Slavic language. Poland and others do that often.
          Yes, I know VK, it is platform many European and Russians and others use.

          You say –
          If not for the Russian army of 14, victims of the conflict would be many times more
          Language is a lot of what this comes down to.
          If Russian speakers are denied their tongue in government speaking, and have to change to other national tongue, they separate and demand only Russian language as lead language.
          IF russian speakers would have gone along with change, which MOST of Moldova wanted, their would not have been conflict.
          When in Russia, speak Russian.
          When in France speak French.
          When in Moldova, speak what most vote to speak.
          So decide do fight Transnistria and separate.
          They not want be part of Molodova, they want own country were can have own government language also be language of family history.
          They forget, they imported into Moldova by Stalin.part of Operation South.
          And Stalin deported many Moldovans to Siberia.
          Yes, I can understand your viewpoint of government demanding you speak a different language in region where everyone spoke Russian, leave bad taste in the mouth.
          But you also must understand other side of it.
          Nation ask what do you want to speak, people vote and say Russian or Romanian.
          Russian lose vote, they cry and fight.
          Sorry, nationalist not in wrong.
          If you want speak Russian, do it in house, but learn Romanian for dialogue with government.
          OR return to Russia where Stalin sent you from.
          No one say you cannot have heritage or history or speak Russian as main language.
          They say you must speak another language also, and that is the official language of government.
          Every other nation do this.
          If you want go to live in Australia, main language is English.
          If want go to Russia, main language is Russian.
          If in Ukraine, they were making decision, and Kremlin stooges used this as provocation to say ethnic Russians are in danger and separate and create war.
          Same Transnistria.
          The problem is refusal to integrate with country you live, and follow democratic process.
          It is that problem that caused danger to many lives that the 14th would have not have to be used for if it never happen.
          The 14th did not start helping until near the end of May 92, If i remember right.
          If ethnic Russians accepted the fact they lost a democratic vote, and learned a different language as government language, there would be no bloodshed whatsoever and 14th never needed.
          Do not get me wrong, I understand about heritage.
          But I think it stupid to spill blood because lost vote.
          If not like decision, go to somewhere you can speak Russian.
          It was vote and spoke for the people inside of Moldova’s borders.
          If you have population in whole country and want change back to Russian with vote, you could do it in future.
          BUT when you live in country and they have vote and you lose, you do what vote says or move or fight it.
          In 1990, your Russian nationalist in Moldova said fight.
          I think was wrong decision and I think Gorbachev thought same for most of it, but had to do something in end because Russian President and people in Moscow have ants in pants.
          It is same game Russian speaking separatists have been playing for long time with guidance from Kremlin.

          Stalin occupy, sends Russians into country and deport citizens to Siberia, then in future when people have vote on state language and Russian occupiers no longer there, Russian people that immigrated into another country demand rights in other nation they lose by democratic vote and then they fight with Separatism bloodshed and finally Russian military come in.
          It is long stupid game for those that lose vote all based on language of occupiers from many years ago.
          The winners of nation’s vote had right to demand assimilation or leave.
          And this game again is played in Ukraine and Crimea.
          No one was persecuted for speak Russian or for being ethnic Russian.
          No one was in danger of life.
          There would be no fighting if assimilate and accept nation’s vote..

          Yes, I can see you favor separatism, you are against democratic vote of nation you live in.
          For that, I say sorry.
          IF hand on other foot and you had vote for state language and you won and Ukrainian language lost, you would be happy and also angry with people who believe Ukraine is Ukraine and Ukrainian language is most important.
          And I would support you because vote of the people and democracy had acted.
          BUT if they lost, they would accept without bloodshed because word of vote has been spoken, and that is what supporting democracy is about.

          It is war of language and refusal to integrate with a society saying ‘No, Russian is not state language, we are no longer under Kremlin yoke of burden.’
          Ethnic Russians that were emigrated into occupied country refuse to recognize democratic vote of nation they live in and be part of that nation.
          They want ‘little Russia’ satellite country and refuse to accept reality.
          And Kremlin promote this with terrorism and organized crime in background of society.

          As far as Crimean history, it follow model.
          Vote was split on language, so they make decision to be Ukraine, but still hold Russian language as state language there.
          That is why it autonomous from Ukraine.
          The vote spoke, and it worked and there was no bloodshed.
          And the will of the people spoke.
          Did UA nationalists start separatism and bloodshed to keep Crimea with Ukraine?
          Did UA government demand it remain UA vassal? no.
          Democratic vote made decision, and UA’s governments and patriots accepted it.

          Last referendum in Crimea was BS, less then three weeks to set up and under supervision of only Russian forces carrying automatic rifles.
          Same with Donetsk and Luhansk.
          Fake results, ballot stuffing, ethnic Russians being paid to vote 5-10 times.
          All part of Kremlin deception and BS.

          And that is my opinion, and facts support it.

          Fare thee well

          Reply
    • PatSinc

      Alexander,
      Had it occurred to you that perhaps one of the reasons that Russia is so keen to hand out citizenship to citizens of countries that voted to divide from Russia is so that the likes of Putin can claim the right to interfere militarily in those countries affairs to “protect” the rights of its citizens, who, on the whole, were neither born nor have lived in Russia?
      Do you think it’s rather odd that in your first mention of citizenship, you described yourself neither as a citizen of your country of birth nor your country of residence, but instead a citizen of a third nation with a policy of destabilizing both those countries?

      Reply
  8. RedKat

    SO, no, I do not think this was an accident with over 20 planes passing that corridor that day and not one of them getting shot, just MH17.
    I think it was a Kremlin ordered terrorist act of high magnitude.
    —————————————————————————-
    boggled, why would Kremlin do this? What do Russians gain from this deliberate act besides being blamed and, eventually, taken to the tribunal? Just doesn’t make much sense.

    Reply
    • boggled

      RK,
      Who knows the rationality of the Kremlin in its plans, and how well they carry them out.
      The reason, I thought I stated but I try to be more clear, was the Kremlin needed a reason to invade Ukraine and occupy all of it, such were the wishes expressed by vova at the time.
      A plane shot down by Kyiv fascist junta a lie to be spread around in LieNews, would have giving him the approval or at least not to say anything as he did.
      The LieNews agents should have briefed the crew that first went to the disaster to perpetuate the lie.
      A series of Kremlin stooge blunders, prevented RF military from coming in.
      The Kremlin hoped that reaction would be by separatists would be spontaneous and blame UA for shooting down a civilian plane, except they were caught with phones and social media saying where is AN26, where is SU25, and we have a BUK, were deliver, and all the photos of the BUK, to the end with the 3 missiles.
      It foiled their plans of ‘peacekeeping’ occupation of Ukraine.
      vova figured if he could not have his land bridge then he would orchestrate something to have it all.
      Criminals never expect to get caught, all of them think they plan for perfect crime.
      Some do, many don’t because stupid blunders and human error.
      This is a blunder. They did not expect get caught, they expect to be able to blame Kyiv fascist junta.
      When your one of the most corrupt criminals in history of world, you expect to be able to do this and expect those under you to be able to carry out this KGB style plot.
      They failed, and now they will face tribunal and more.

      Fare thee well

      Reply
    • Pianoman

      Don’t expect everything coming from boggled to make sense. He just admitted to believing that the Polish TU-154 crash, which killed the Polish president and numerous other high-ranking people, was not an accident. The fact that the investigation has been thorough and clearly showed that it was indeed an accident does not bother boggled.

      More on that incident- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_crash

      Reply
      • boggled

        Pianoman, yes, the official investigation is done, and as you see in the Wiki article there are flaws in the report from the investigation that have not fully been explains and could be explained by various ‘conspiracy theories’.
        I have two, there were bombs and they were intended to go off at another location.
        Or a GRU technician adjusted settings on the plane for altitude and the pilot made judgments by those settings and crashed.
        There is enough evidence I think for it to be explained and fully looked into.
        Like I stated in my recent above comment.
        Investigators’ reports are one thing.
        What the prosecutors think they can prove is another.
        The main prosecutor’s charges are another.
        What is found in the court case can be a whole other item and say none of those stick.
        All part of the various checks and balances things.
        I think it is good to have an investigative and court review of the past one and once issues are pointed out, explanations must follow.

        To that, one issue I have is the statement in the Wiki article that is important.
        – Request for information about 13 recorders mounted in ATC, and data recorded (even corrupted) for analysis. MAK states that camera, voice recorders and photo laboratory not worked properly and a lot of information was not saved.

        Russians throughout evidence instead of handing it over for further analysis.
        That smells fishy to me.

        Do I believe in the conspiracy theory or in the report by the Polish Government?
        I believe both could be right and it is worth looking into the available evidence more.
        I am torn in half, so while is the conspiracy theory is open and until satisfactory answers are given, I have my opinion.
        I have more justification for my opinion than you have about your chem trails or moon landing hoax theories, Pianoman.

        Fare thee well

        Reply
  9. luc

    A question why is it when kiev government an most of the west and bellingcat claim Ukraine are at war with Russia in east Ukraine they have never in 16 months bothered to fire even one shot or attack Crimea ??????? if there fight the Russians in the east why are they not fighting them in crimea ?????…..I’m a new Zealander btw i don,t believe Russia had anything to do with shot down MH17 .it all reminds me of 2003 when Australia,america,England and all western media told us all saddam Iraq have weapons of mass destruction and 2 years later we all found out they were lying and a million Iraq civilians lost there lives and the leaders of Australia,america,England and the media have never been made accountable and heres my last question for you ..do you think that so called journalists like your self if in the future we all find out you were wrong so have lied to the world should we the public make you accountable ?????

    Reply
    • boggled

      ReALLY? Have you bought into all those conspiracy theories and put them into one comment?
      Covert war the Kremlin does not want to declare is being waged in East Ukraine.
      IF Russians wanted to declare war and fight from Crimea, then Ukraine would battle on two fronts.
      The Kremlin knows it would earn condemnation from its own people and a civil war if they officially declared war on Ukraine.
      AND if they did, the USA and international community because of the Budapest Memorandum would respond with many complications for the Russian army.

      You may be right about MH17 and your free to express your opinion, but I think your wrong and I am free to express my opinion.

      NOW to Iraq, have you read the CIA last report on IRAQ?
      CWD and BWD were found.
      Explicit plans were found for a nuclear weapon.
      WERE the heck did you hear a million people died in the first two years of the IRaq war?
      Kremlin propaganda and Palestinian propaganda are the only places I find those numbers.
      You need to read up on the facts buckwheat.

      To your final question, my response – If Kremlin sponsored media and the Kremlin is proven a complete liar in this whole East Ukraine conflict, do you think they should be brought up on terrorism charges?

      Half the Russians would not be in Ukraine if it was not for the lies about a crucified child and Ukrainian fascists.
      7000 people of Eastern Ukraine would be alive today, 2000 Ukrainian soldiers would be alive, 10000 – 20000 Russians and Russian soldiers would be alive today, can’t get an exact number because that side uses mobile crematoriums to hide the bodies and they will not tell because its a war Russia claims it is not fighting, even though EVERYONE knows different.

      .Yes, I think Kremlin sponsored media and many in the Kremlin should be called terrorists, many should face war crime tribunals at the Hague and inside Ukraine and inside Russia herself, and many should face financial ruin for the war they are lying about.
      Don’t you Luc?

      Reply

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